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jimbo

Broken Intercooler air scoop

174 posts in this topic

I got the answer and all I will say about it is I LIKE IT....so far!

Edited by Mike T

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So I just got back from TPM from a very excellent service, and the intercooler was changed along with the intercooler holder under a DPA. My intercooler had been chafed through on the core by the plastic holder, which is where all the oily mess was coming from. Apparently the drivetrain has to be lowered to re&re the holder, so it's a bit of a job, the value of the job is in the $750 dollar range for the parts and labour on the DPA work order. The broken intercooler scoop was also changed for $95, at my cost.There was a secondary air/oil leak from the turbo inlet seal, which I paid for, labour and part together were $64. The form of the seal has been redesigned and the clamp has been re-specced to reduce the likelihood of future failures. Apparently the original seal design wasn't so bad but the clamp used to secure the inlet tube was too thin and ended up distorting the seal once tightened. The new clamp is wider. This is from my discussion with Al, the senior mechanic at TPM.I also had some other things done to the car which needed attention, clutch adjustment....and somewhat surprisingly, the front pads had started to detach from the backing plates due to our harsh 2008/09 winter after only 45,000 km, so I got them to replace the rotors and pads at 127,000 km. The wheel bearings were declared OK so my noise is the tires (which are getting to be worn out).So here are the part numbers for the updated stuff related to the intake tract:0000929V004000000 intercooler carrier (redesigned)0004621V002000000 turbo inlet seal (redesigned)000000-000668 clamp (wider)

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0000929V004000000 intercooler carrier (redesigned)

Hmmm. Have to see if Eddy can get this one ...

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So I was watching IAT on the ScanGauge on the way to TPM this morning. The ambient air temperature outside the car was 14 degrees and the IAT was peaking at 68 degrees C on the steepest part of the Malahat Drive, heading south. On flat road the delta T between ambient and the IAT was about 10-15 degrees, at 80 to 90 km/h.After the new intercooler, holder and scoop were installed, I watched IAT on the way home. Although the Malahat is steeper on the route north AND it was 21 degrees, not 14, the IAT peaked at 50 degrees C on the way back, with flat road delta T being about 4-8 degrees C. I had noticed the IATs were stupidly high when it was really hot here over a week ago, like almost 100 degrees on some hills when it was 40 degrees C out. My fuel economy at those times was not up to the usual decent standard.With the IAT spiking to close to the boiling point of water, a level it never reaches with a scoop in place, the heat cycle amplitude is 80 or so degrees on a single drive, which may be too much for the poor thing to bear, specifically the rubber tank seals on either end of the aluminium core. I am speculating here, but heat cycling is a problem for most materials.My conclusion is twofold:1. if your intercooler scoop is broken, change it NOW if you want decent fuel economy in the summer. In the winter it seems to be less of a factor.2. if your intercooler scoop is broken, not replacing it may contribute to premature intercooler tank gasket deterioration due to extreme heat cycling, so again, change a broken intercooler scoop right away!

Edited by Mike T

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I set my SGII to read the IAT this morning & with an ambient temp of 5C & a broken scoop my IAT was spiking at 33C, a 1/2 hrs worth of workwith a old plastic jug & some pop rivets the IAT was hovering around22-25C.Time well spent.

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Hmm, so it does make a difference, eh? Might invest in a new one then (third one is broken, so this would be no. 4).-Iain

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Try a Red Green fix though, at $95 for the part if I recall right it addsup awful fast!Edted to add: the price last year was $58.75 taxes inc.

Edited by strawboss

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Try a Red Green fix though, at $95 for the part if I recall right it addsup awful fast!Edted to add: the price last year was $58.75 taxes inc.

Yup. Time for my annual intercooler scoop replacement as well. I'm too lazy to put the broken one back on for the winter......

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I busted the scoop on the white car in an Illinois snowstorm last February and of course I changed it immediately upon getting to BC.

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Of course? :) Mine usually sit broken for 6 months or so before I do anything about it - I've been running for about a year and a half on this one, smashed up. I never notice a performance gain when I get it fixed, so I figured "why bother". -Iain

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I must be doing something wrong.Through three winters, including one with record snow (2007-2008), and mine still appears intact.

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Of course? :) Mine usually sit broken for 6 months or so before I do anything about it - I've been running for about a year and a half on this one, smashed up. I never notice a performance gain when I get it fixed, so I figured "why bother". -Iain

Well.... maybe "performance gain" isn't the term I'd use when it comes to these tiny engines Duck,but rather avoiding a meltdown by giving them every bit of help possible! :P

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Posted (edited) · Report post

That might be the effect I was referring to. The car didn't throw a code, no lights appeared. I just didn't have a turbo. Because I drive hard most of the time it was immeidately obvious to me when it happened.

It was preceded by some remarkable performance by the car - I suspect that the wastegate was sticking where it would normally start bleeding exhaust gas away from the turbo. I was on the flat with nobody to draft behind and the car was creeping above 3700 rpm in 6th (normally stays close to 3500 rpm in that situation).

Then there was a difficult to describe moment that I can only say felt like a deflation in the car. pfffft. Accompanied by a slowing of the vehicle. I still had the full RPM range, but the power was nil.

Just had this happen on one of my turbo gas 450s. I was driving from Nashville, Tennessee back to Atlanta, Georgia (a rather hilly area) maintaining an average speed of 70mph - 80mph (112kmh - 128kmh) and heard a loud "pssssssssssssshhhhhhhffffft!" and then noticed no turbo assistance (thats the best way I can describe it). Pulled over at the next exit into a well-lighted gas station. Left the car running (so that the turbo could get a chance to cool down) and got out to inspect everything. Looking at the rear of the car and the ground beneath it, I noticed some oil had hit the pavement. Then I noticed the entire rear panel and rear door (part under the rear window) were covered in a light "misting" of oil.

I took the engine cover off, shined my flashlight in to make sure that all hoses were still connected and everything was functioning as it should. Once the engine cooled to my liking, I shut it off and decided to take a snack and restroom break. Once I started the car again, the turbo was back and there were no problems.

Today I decided to inspect the car. I pulled the rear panels off, cleaned the engine (i mean really cleaned it. Almost looks like an engine with 1k on it. I also put some white lithium spray grease on the reluctor rings as they're starting to look bad) and I believe I've narrowed the cause down to one of two things based on what I have read in this thread.

[*]The wastegate arm decided to do a large purge

[*]the jubilee clamp for the top intercooler hose (where hose connects to the intercooler right next to the airbox) does not form a good enough seal and the pressure build up was exhausted between the intercooler hose and the intercooler

After cleaning the engine I checked the intercooler and its airscoop and noticed I may need to buy and install the updated parts Mike_T mentioned. Also, I found the source of an oil leak. Where the top intercooler hose connects to the intercooler near the airbox, the Forge Motorsports 4-ply silicone hose and its supplied clamp do not seem to form a perfect seal. Or I could have the jubilee clamp twisted too tight or not situated 100% perfect, but I highly doubt that. Since the engine was just cleaned, I decided to run the engine for about 15 minutes or so before I started inspecting areas that had noticeable oil from oil leaks (only 2, one of which is the usual suspect that is corrected by fitting a catch tank). I noticed a line of oil running down the plastic opening the top intercooler hose connects to. This then causes the oil to drip on the driveshaft and its seal. I then thought "Maybe there was a tiny gap at the conenction of intercooler and intercooler hose. Under pressure this gap then allowed pressure to escape." This, and Mike_T posting that there is a new, wider clamp for the intercooler hose, prompted me to come up with scenario number 2, above.

But then I reread this thread, read Gent's post and looked at the wastegate arm servicing guide (as suggested by Gent's post, quoted above) at Evilution (I hope Kane is getting a well-deserved break) and figured I should service it. I didn't have any graphite lube so I decided to check the Wastegate Actuator Hoses and to check the clip that connectors the wastegate arm (Loose wastegate arm). Clip looked good and all hoses are still attached properly.

So I'm puzzled. I imagine that since I heard the same noise Gent heard, it was the wastegate doing a large purge (scenraio 1 above). Maybe the large purge was caused by the work the engine was having to do? Or maybe it was caused by the pin on the wastegate arm becoming wonky under the stress/temp? Engine temp (as measured by the car's regular display, no fancy X- or ScanGauge) was 3 blips. Is scenario 2 even possible?

This is certainly the weirdest thing that has every happened to me in the Smart. :(

Edited by briand

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I'd vote for a leaky hose or hose clamp - either one letting air when under pressure :dunno:

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I believe the 698 cc engine has an electronically-controlled wastegate, doesn't it? I doubt it'd be a hose releasing. Not sure why the oil blew out either. Is the PCV valve functioning? Please keep us updated!

Edited by Mike T

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My fancy-schmancy under-tray intercooler scoop got broken up a bit on a recent drive over the mountain highway. There were two wheel ruts with a hill of snow in the middle, and the scoop ... uh .... scooped up a bunch of snow and a front corner of it broke away and a fastener let loose. Not enough for it to drag on the ground, and I only noticed it when Mike took a spin in my car while I followed and could see it hanging!

Fortunately, I had used plastic push-rivets to fasten it to the under-tray, thinking I'd rather sacrifice the scoop than a whole under panel if this sort of thing ever happened. Booyah! Clevva Design FTW!

Bil :sun:

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I believe the 698 cc engine has an electronically-controlled wastegate, doesn't it? I doubt it'd be a hose releasing. Not sure why the oil blew out either. Is the PCV vlave functioning? Please keep us updated!

Thanks for the tip MIke_T. It might be electronically controlled. I am not 100% certain. Bil, thats unfortunate you lost the scoop but a great thing that you took the extra time to design it properly. :) Edited by briand

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Thanks for the tip MIke_T. It might be electronically controlled. I am not 100% certain. Bil, thats unfortunate you lost the scoop but a great thing that you took the extra time to design it properly. :)

Well, it's not totally gone, Brian. The wide, "funnel" part broke off but the rest is intact. So it's just a channel now - arguably more efficient than a simple flap :dunno:The next thing is to drag the laminar airflow right up into the inlet. Concept is to add 24-36 transverse inches of 2" vortex generator strips to the chin spoiler. I have proved that this technique works well on the brow ridge of the roof.B :senile: ... one thing at a time... breathe...

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Does smartarse still make the scoop? I don't see it on their site.

I am not sure who makes them any longer. I got mine from a pair of guys I met through smartmaniacs, who hand-laid a couple of dozen. I did a horse-trade instead of paying for it, so... it was worth every penny to me ;)

Here's one from Italy: LINKY

China: LINKY

They both look the same!

But you know what, Francesco? Bubski did some temperature testing awhile back that suggests the wide "mega-scoop" is not as efficient as we might intuitively expect, and that the long, narrow channel that I have ended up with after the break is probably more efficient!

Bubski, if you're reading this, maybe you can elaborate???

One of the serendipitous features of a long-channel scoop is that, because it is fastened to the undertray and the vertical channel (that's what I did, anyway), it helps keep the vertical plastic channel from rattling around and grinding down the edge of the intercooler matrix!

So my summary is: don't lay out big money for one of these uber-scoopers, but you might want to experiment with your own, less elaborate design.

Bil :senile:

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Does anyone have a picture of one that is still in good shape should look like? I tried looking in the detailed photo section but could not see one that looked like the damaged ones here.Thanks

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If you look under the driver's side of the car, if you don't see it, then it is gone.....it hangs quite low.

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OK, that page or thread is done, augh.....now to search for one on my car...just to check.....seeing as I'm thinking of the EGR mod removale etc etc...just thinking at this point, trying to learn as much about this issue as possible.

Great thread.....excellent. Thanks...Now back to the EGR thread, but 30 pages......augh!

 

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