G&K cruise control (Aftermarket)

[SmartieParts 12]

Sorry about your fingers... ouch!If you're going to buy the OEM stock, which is a large part of the cost, so that it doesn't look like a hack job... well, then... so much for DIY I guess. I thought the whole point of this exercise was to save money. If it ends up costing just as much, or more, than buying a ready-made option, what's the point?And before you answer with a detailed analysis of how much you'll save... divide that by how much time it takes and figure out what you consider yourself to be worth.Its a negative-value venture I think. - Steven

[ASmartMan 0]

Hey All

As the heading states, the progress was Slow today for a few reasons (mostly due to my lack of experience with this car).

First off, MB packed 10 pounds in to a 5 pound bag http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6670100

Then to find out the (what we in the US would call the front firewall) the firewall is PLASTIC, fearing there was more to this firewall than just a plastic divider (chamber that was used for the Defrost, or etc), I searched and searched, only to conclude it is JUST a piece of plastic .

I measured the travel of the gas peddle http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6670101 and http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6670102 and found the travel exceeded the aftermarket servo driven C/C http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6670098 http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6670099.

This ONLY means the C/C will use 80% of the peddle throw (so this cruise control will NOT be able to floor the gas peddle, that may NOT be a bad thing), and it also means I will be using a make up chain (if the C/C moves 2.25 inches but the peddle moves 3 inches, there has to be something to absorb that extra movement).

I had the drill in hand ( with a .600" bit ) to drill the ONLY hole needed to install this C/C, but it was getting dark and tomorrow is another day

Tomorrow I hope to, drill hole for the snap lock stand off (the cable of the C/C fits snugly in to this), select chain length, and affix this chain to the gas peddle, (picture will be BEFORE paint, I will paint this flat black so it mixes into the back ground).

As the Icon promotes, It's beer time

Later All

ASM

[SmartieParts 12]

Just to be clear that everyone understands.... this way of going about it is not how the existing smart-specific cruise controls work.

The smart is complete drive-by-wire... it is not necessary to physically move the pedal, or anything else for that matter, to have a cruise control work. Neither the factory OEM cruise (only available [legally] on European smarts) or the only readily available aftermarket version by MDC use this method in any way, shape, or form.

I'm not saying it won't work (although in my opinion... it won't) but I want people reading this to realize you are trying a very different approach of getting cruise in a smart. You are attempting to make a design suitable for a car with a traditional throttle work with one that has no throttle. Its an interesting approach. Kinda like getting a computer to do math by drilling holes through a bunch of them and attaching them to sticks (think a very large abicus with a few dozen very broken computers)... but interesting nonetheless.

I'll contribute to the project though... if you get a working and reasonably adequate cruise out of all this using a home-made 3 button design for the controls... I'll donate a genuine Smart cruise switch so you can polish it off.

What do I get if I'm right... and you realize that "servos" and "chains" don't fit in the same sentence with "cruise control for smarts"?

Cheers.

- Steven

[ValgardForkbeard 2]

Hey, as long as he is having fun with it, and it doesn't turn out dangerous to anyone, let him go for it.MG

[SmartieParts 12]

nobody's stopping him! (except perhaps physics) hehe... I jest.No, seriously... ok, I've expressed my doubts obviously, but I've wished him luck and even put a prize up if he can do it. - Steven

[ASmartMan 0]

s_mackYour on , If I lose I will buy a MDC Cruise Control from you, if I win then I'll expect you to honor your offer to provide "I'll donate a genuine Smart cruise switch so you can polish it off."I will be willing to drive (up to 300 miles) to have an independent person verify my results, OOHH I live in Londonderry NH.SSOO I guess I won't have to put much thought in to the switch pad Hee Hee HeeLet the games beginASM

[SmartieParts 12]

Deal! Have fun and good luck. - Steven

[smartzuuk 167]

While I understand inventive desire.... and cheapness... and a want to "stick it to the man"... no matter what comes of this experiment, its going to look and probably feel like a hack job to one degree or another. At best, its going to look like the early remote-version of the MDC if anyone remembers those! It worked, sure... but... how would Duck put it? "Puke my freakin brains out!"

Hey - I used that wired remote in my car.

[SmartieParts 12]

Yeah, it wasn't that bad I guess. At first, of course, that was the only option. At least the colour was a good match. And mounted on the side like that was good. I think most people, myself included, had them just dangling in the cup holder or the like. At the very least, a mounting bracket along with a suggestion on where to put it should have been provided. - Steven

[ASmartMan 0]

Hey All

Day 2 and I finally got it installed, this took ALL day due to the fact I changed my mind about 4 times.

I'm taking this SLOW due to the fact that if I screw something up I'm SOL (being in the US), but now that it's done, it wasn't that bad.

First decision was where to mount the servo, at first it was going outside, I nixed this (due to weather and if I needed to change the dip switches, I'd have to pull the nose off every time), so instead it went here http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677439 (tie wraps are only temporary until I get the DIP switches set correctly), that meant I had to drill a hole here http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677437 , I will RTV it later. and I also had to cut the foam foot rest http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677440 .

Next was where to snake the cable through the nose http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677659 (down along the plastic bottom panel, then turned up before the steering knuckle and through the hole behind the peddle), I used a few wire ties to keep it out of the fan and away from the steering knuckle and rod.

Next decision was how to mount the cable through the firewall (this too had 3 ways). Because the cable had a thread-able plastic I used 2 lock nuts http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677432 this will also allow some adjustment in the future. the hole went here http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677434 and with the carpet in place it melted into the background http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677435

Time to mod the peddle, the counter sunk screw before I painted it http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677429 and the uncut chain and unpainted back http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677431 complete http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6677436 now these adjustment nuts will come in handy to take out the little slack.

That is as far as I got today (7 hours worth) but in the end I believe I selected the better of my options and I didn't damage anything .

If any one decides to try what I am doing, snaking the cable through the nose is tough, if this was 10 years ago I was still playing competitive volleyball my arms would not of fit in to the little gaps.

Tomorrow I do the basic wiring (stop switch/power and ignition) I know what wires are for transmission RPM but this is what I don't know, is it a sign wave or a square wave? and how many pulses per mile? I don't know if anyone here knows, but that means I have to break out my Oscope and freq counter (as well as my inverter) to get this data.

The ONLY thing I still do not know is, will the electric servo have enough torque to pull the gas peddle down, there is a LOT of spring in that thing, and I'm hoping I won't have to start playing with springs. WELL only time will tell.

On a side note, while taking a break today, I was thinking about the programing of the dip switches especially the rate response (how fast it reacts) and something dawned on me

My C/C will not know when the car is shifting and with a rapid response rate will try to apply more throttle while shifting (Especially going up hill, it will apply throttle, the car will kick down, and during that kick down will apply even more throttle maybe causing a 2 gear kick down).

I suspect you guys with the MDC C/C are seeing the exact same thing I am expecting (MDC doesn't talk to the MB computer so it too doesn't know the clutch has been pushed in)

Time to take the wife to dinner, Later All

ASM

[smartzuuk 167]

Is there going to be a quick install version? The MDC thing with the OEM stalk takes under an hour. I value my time...

[SmartieParts 12]

I suspect you guys with the MDC C/C are seeing the exact same thing I am expecting (MDC doesn't talk to the MB computer so it too doesn't know the clutch has been pushed in)

You suspect wrong. The MDC unit certainly does talk to the computer. However, it should be a non-issue for you most of the time, because when cruise is engaged you should be, well... cruising. Gear shifting while cruising should be very infrequent. I get that concern a lot: "it won't work in manual mode though, will it?" Of course it will, but it shouldn't because you should be using it at appropriate times and that isn't during acceleration or deceleration (hence the term "cruise") and when you aren't speeding up or slowing down... you aren't changing gears.So in my mind, this is one of your least problematic concerns and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. - Steven

[smartie yank 0]

Steven, I disagree with your last statement. I shift with mine all the time. If somebody in front of you slows to make a turn or whatever as soon as they are out of the way I hit the resume and shift as the car accelerates to the preset speed. Also in the hills I down shift as needed to maintain speed or if in soft touch, the car shifts down and up as needed.ASM, This shouldn't be a concern if you are using a pick up that reads road speed rather than engine speed. As soon as you move the shifter the computer takes over all operations and throttle petal position means nothing until the shift is completed. If the car slowed significantly during the shift, the servo will depress the petal to increase speed and that is where you want it when the shift is completed. If the road speed is unchaned, the pedal position will be unchanged. You can adjust the sensitivity of the unit with the dip switches as to how soon the unit reacts, 1mph speed variation or more. Also how far the throttle pedal is depressed or released in reaction to speed variations. Makes for a much smoother ride with big hp engines.You might try moving your pedal attachment point lower on the pedal. Should give more pedal travel for the same cable travel, closer to the fulcrum point. I don't think the spring tension is that big a problem, I have one of these on my bus and it moves 35' of mechanical linkage plus the Detroit Diesel governer linkage. After about 20,000 miles of use it would overheat after about 30 min. and start slowing down gradually. If you pushed the throttle you could feel it pick up but it couldn't hold it very long. It just wasn't heavy enough for a bus.By the way Steven, I think you better get that stalk unit packaged, I think ASM has this one in the bag.As a side note, I put the MDC unit in Dennis' (DJW) smart this afternoon, got a nice dinner for my efforts thank you Dennis. Only bad thing is he drove the smart up and I really wanted to see it on the back of his Volvo, maybe next time.

[MikeT 744]

I too shift quite a bit when in cruise. An unremapped cdi is often in 5th gear on highway hills.

[SmartieParts 12]

Yeah, ok... I forgot about unremapped :)But I didn't say you NEVER shift... just said its not frequent enough to be an issue big enough to worry about. If you're downshifting its not a bad idea to have the revs go up anyway. As for resuming and accelerating needing upshifting... that, I would think, would be very rare. If your resume is taking effect over that big of a range that you are going through gears, well... with exceptions I would say its probably not the safest way to be driving. I don't think I'm insane in saying that "cruise" control should be for "cruising". Still, you're right in principle - if it reads road speed it shouldn't matter. However, is it going to read road speed? Without a connection to the CAN I can't see how it can know that. And its a bit low-tech for CAN.I'm not going to pack it just yet I have a feeling it won't have the power to effectively pull on the pedal well enough to work as we would expect a cruise to work - smooth and steady. If he gets it to tug on the pedal and go vroom vroom... not a cruise control that does make! It needs to function reasonably on par with the existing units, which means smooth, steady operation and various speeds with similar "surging" (which is practically none above 50kph... minor from 40 to 50, and rather significant from 25 to 40 - where you should never be using a cruise anyway).I'm still doubting the success of this VERY much, but I will certainly honor my end if I'm proven wrong. Along with a hearty congrats and a unofficial steve's DIY of the year award!Incidentally... if I do lose, (and I should have mentioned this earlier) I have to be a bit of a jerk if he owns a cabrio. I have no cabrio switches and have a backorder a mile long. He'd get one eventually if that's the case, but I'm hoping he has a coupe so its not a long wait. - Steven

[smartie yank 0]

Well Steve I don't think remapping has anything to do with it. We obviously have different driving styles. I have driven many "ticket magnet" type cars over the years and learned early on that speeding tickets are costly insurance wise. I use the cruise control at all speeds. I would much rather watch the road than the speedometer. Our boys in blue love their radar and don't give us the over speed grace margin that they seem to in many other areas.Also you don't give much credit to these after market units, except for MDC. They have been building these things for over 30 years, I put my first unit on a 74 Jensen Healy that I owned back in the 70s. I have used them on Peugeots, Pick-ups and as mentioned above my ex Greyhound bus. They function as well as any factory unit. I have replaced failed factory units because they are so much cheaper than factory parts. Somehow I don't think they would be selling these units for over thirty years if they weren't doing something right.There are many people working on modifications to these cars. From engine air flow to body air flow and everything in between. I personally don't agree with many of the ideas but I certainly encourage everyone to try and fail rather than not try in the first place. I have been working on cars for over 40 years and beleive me there is a lot of self satisfaction in making something work when everybody and all the books say it won't work.For now ASM.. Go For It!

[SmartieParts 12]

Your first statement, I don't really know what you're talking about. I'm not sure what I said that you are responding to exactly. Cruise control is meant for cruising, which by definition isn't accelerating or decelerating and if you aren't doing that then you aren't changing gears. I'm not sure that's a "driving style" and certainly has nothing to do with speeding or not. Using cruise control in city limits is illegal in many areas (of course they'd never know, until you admit it after an accident) and the reason is obvious - its not meant for use in traffic.

Your second statement... Well.... the fact they've been making them for 30+ years and that it works on "other" cars is really the exact point why it shouldn't be used in the smart car. The smart is different. Read their own instructions and over half of it (the important half) doesn't apply. So I'm not knocking "after market units, except for MDC" - I'm knocking their use on a car that doesn't have a throttle. Every one of your cars that you had them working well on had throttles. They had "gas pedals" not "accelerator potentiometers". They had "linkages" not "CANbus signals". I'm only knocking the product insomuch as I'd knock someone trying to install a Holly carb in the smart - Good part, wrong technology.

Mainly, the biggest thing I've "knocked" here was the way the original post was written to make it sound like the expensive options that are already out there are "WTF" not needed because you can spend $100 on this or that and have it work just the same. None of it was true. First, its costing him WELL over double the $100 (just the switch I'll be providing if he gets it to work is worth over that). Second, "it" isn't the "proper" solution for this kind of vehicle, and even if it does work in some fashion or another its hardly something to be recommended to anyone on grounds of safety to the car or driver. Third, the more he posts his progress the more he's proving the preceding two points true, so I'll be glad to reward him with a switch since he's demonstrated to the general public that his first statement was absolutely false and the "real" solutions make a lot more sense in terms of money, operation, and certainly time.

Even if I "lose" this little wager, I can't lose This has been most entertaining and educational in the "what not to do" column.

- Steven

[MikeT 744]

Come on now, why all the anxiety?Cruising at a steady speed OFTEN means changing gears, in a smart, in BC at least. I also did a fair bit of gearchanging in the mountains, while in the 6 speed manual M-B C 230 K we drove across Canada in back in 2004, and that car had bags of power and torque.....I think it's great that this experiment is underway. If it works, it could have application to the 451, and that car surely needs cruise as well. If not, well, no animals were harmed during the testing. LOL

[SmartieParts 12]

Anxiety?

[MikeT 744]

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of hand-wringing going on here!Let's just let ASmartMan install his cruise, get the freebie and it'll all be good

[SmartieParts 12]

I don't understand either of your statements... neither "anxiety" nor "hand-wringing" seems to apply to anything anyone has said. Both imply nervousness... I don't get it. - Steven

[MikeT 744]

"it" isn't the "proper" solution for this kind of vehicle, and even if it does work in some fashion or another its hardly something to be recommended to anyone on grounds of safety to the car or driver.

He will do a good job.

[ASmartMan 0]

FOOTBALLBrother and I sat down for a day of football yesterday (SSOO nothing got done), we put the car back together during half time and called it a day.s_mack, I was searching for membrane switches today and found the mother load (I know what I will be choosing). If this works, I would prefer to go with my $15 Newark Electronics option rather than the MB stalk.I want to release you from your commitment, BUT also want to assure you (because I want to have cruise control regardless) if I fail I will be getting the ONLY other option available to me, the MDC C/C.Next weekend will be the threshold, some time this week I plan on testing the Vss to see how many pulses per revolution (tire is 72" (6 foot) diameter, that means 970 revelations per mile I'll count the pules for 1 revolution and calculate accordingly.Till next weekend ALLASM

[SmartieParts 12]

I'm interested to see the membrane solution you came up with, and where you'll be putting it! - Steven

[rdij 0]

I've enjoyed watching & hearing this project develop. I have to read wiring instructions 5 or 6 times usually before I start anything. So I was somewhat more overwhelmed with ASM's pile of wires than what came with with MDC unit. I have learned that the MDC works a bit different than cruise in my other cars. Like shifting diferences - I have found that I need to practice and learn how to manage them. The MDC offers some additional features (like the shut off security) that are unique (to me). I got frustrated trying to find a replacement low beam bulb (that's not the same as in Canada) which caused me further concern when its packaging said it was a high beam. I wouldn't be able to tackle what ASM is - so I enjoy following what he is trying and discarding step by step. For me, I like the package after all the start-up stuff has been figured out.darryl