TDC PowerBox

[Sagittarius30 0]

LOL! Bil you the man!! Alright, time to charge the credit card. I will post my findings when I get a good run out east here. My research would probably be more based on gas consumption knowing how jammed up Toronto is....LOL!

[Dang 0]

So it sounds like the shifting time has greatly reduced, is that true?

Yes!

Cause I swear it takes the car 1.5 seconds to shift a gear, how long do you say it takes now?

Less than 1/2 the normal time.

HUH???????

How would the power box change the speed the transmission shifts?

Seriously, you guys and the 6 1/2 gear guys need to get together.

Later!

Dang

[Duck 16]

I want to know that too - I thought this was the thing that goes by the fuel rail pressure sensor.But yeah for that price if it does all Bill says it does, how can you go wrong?? Now I want this. "Real car" feel would be awesome-Iain

[bilgladstone 13]

I think this has to do with the engine's power and the ECU's instructions to the clutch actuator.Imagine there is an actual pedal-operated clutch. When you're driving an underpowered car, you have to slowly let up the pedal when you're taking off - feather the clutch - because if you don't, the car will stall. At the other extreme of power, you're driving a supercar... rev the engine and just dump the clutch... the wheels will spin and then you will race away from the starting line.So inbetween slowly and carefully letting in the clutch and just letting it slam in, there is an infinite range of actuation. And in the smart the optimal timing of the feather:dump variation is controlled by the ECU. We've experienced that the gearchanges get quicker and smoother through the run-in period from 0km to - what? - 30,000km? Yes, there's an element of the driver getting used to the car, but part of that driver compensation is finding the right rpm, acceleration etc; balancing the torque point with the shift.And I believe that there is an ECU training thing that goes on too. If you normally drive conservatively, take the car out for a couple of hours of sporty driving and following that you'll find that the ECU has adapted to the changed demands and has slightly modified its parameters and the car will drive better.So... the ECU program takes into account all the factors (those it can sense) in determining how quickly it can shift, i.e. speed at which it can 'safely' let in the clutch without on one hand, stalling the car or on the other, slipping/burning the clutch plates.Clearly, if you have more engine power, you can let the clutch in faster.... = quicker shift. QEDWell that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Unless you can convince me otherwise Bil

[Duck 16]

Ohhh I see what you're saying Bil, yeah that makes sense!!So this thing is decent? It's not just the variable-resistor-in-a-box thing, its actually got some guts in it? Is there a link where to buy? Nosedive needs a christmas present. -Iain

[Dang 0]

The TDC power box IS one those fuel rail things.

Power Box, with diagram.

It goes between the ECU and the common rail sensor. It has no connection whatsoever to the transmission, nor does it "reprogram" any ECU settings. In fact they actually promote that it doesn't.

No interference to the Electronic Control Unit (ECU); original settings are not altered

I can certainly buy their claim of increased power and torque, and can even understand their claim of improved fuel efficiency and no increased emissions, but changing the way the transmission works? Not a chance, nor do they claim it will.

By the way, I'm guessing your X-Gauge went squirly when you put this on.

Later!

Dang

[Duck 16]

I see what Bil's saying, Dang - it's like, the clutch actuator is programmed to actuate based on feedback from the engine speed and loads and things like that, it's calculated how it feathers closed in gear 1.If the engine makes more power, that curve of how fast the engine is turning over time (or wiht how much power) is going to be different so yeah maybe the computer sees that and it is driving the clutch motor differently.Wish there was a little lipstick camera inside the clutch actuator, I love it!-Iain

[Sagittarius30 0]

Yah I agree with Bil as well. With my stock car, I notice when accelerating on a steep downhill, the clutch is out quicker than say if you were to accerelate on a steep uphill. So its true that the TDC box is not directly changing the ECU settings to make it shift faster, but the ECU itself recognizes the car is going fast enough so its time to clutch out quicker.

[42Kruiser 0]

well that and the fact that remaps down here are second hand copies of Rand McNally.It will make for a long six months though. So what is $229 US + $10 US shipping in loonie currency these days? Around $220

[Duck 16]

Yeah, it's stupid cheap to order it online from a US company!!!-Iain

[Dang 0]

Duck and all.....Actually that's an interesting point. I don't know all the remaps, but the one I have (Reg) they specifically don't add extra power at the engage point in order to not wear the clutch any harder than stock. Since the power box isn't connected to the ECU, it wouldn't know that, so could add extra power as the clutch engages. That would help acceleration off the line. (....though maybe not the best thing for the clutch).What your saying makes some sense starting off in 1st, but on mine when I shift to another gear, it cuts the fuel completely. (engine load = 0%). The slow part is the time it takes to change gears no? At least on mine, the actual clutch engaging is a small part of the delay, and of course you can't slow the engine down faster than no fuel, but I do understand even if it's small, it's still a factor.Usually at least, every once in a rare while it seems to get confused and take a long time to engage. I've never been sure if that's a clutch engagement thing or a shifting thing.Also, keep in mind the way these fuel rail things work is they tell the ECU they are not putting in as much fuel as it thinks. At the risk of oversimplifying it...If the ECU wants to put in 1 tablespoon, normally the sensor says "you are now putting in 1 tablespoon!" and the ECU is happy. With the power box, it changes the response to say "you are only putting in a half tablespoon", and the ECU responds by putting more fuel in. Once there is perhaps 2 tablespoons going in, and the power box says "you are now putting in one tablespoon" then the ECU is happy again. That's how these boxes work, they basically alter the response to fool the ECU to put more fuel in, but the point is the ECU still THINKS it's putting in the same amount of fuel. That's why they don't throw any codes or anything like that. The ECU doesn't know the difference. And, if the ECU doesn't know the difference, it's going to send the same instructions to the clutch actuator, right? What's missing in that theory? Actually the first version of these boxes were pretty much just resistors, that "lowered" the value coming from the sensor, but I believe the power box is fancier than that.I guess if the faster actuation theory is true, all remaps would do the same thing, and the transmission would always be faster than stock. Has anyone else noticed faster shifting on a remapped car? I mean Bill is saying it's less than 1/2 the normal time, which is a massive, massive change. A 50% or higher shift speed would certainly not be something you could miss.Thoughts? Dang

[bilgladstone 13]

That 50% shorter interval thing is a total wildazzguess. As you know, a lot of little things are pretty subjective... so maybe not 50% but deffo noticeably quicker!

Also: the X-gauge is not affected at all. My last fill vs X-G comparison was only off by 0.17L/100km - I'm still making fine % adjustments to the X-Gauge and zeroing in on the most perfect setting.

I love my smart car!

B:sun:

[danno 0]

Most of the remaps promise faster shift times as well. I don't know whether it is the remap that tells it to shift faster, or maybe (as this case implies if true) as a result of the extra power on the remap the car shifts faster (if I'm making any sense).

[smartie yank 0]

This is an interesting discussion on clutch engagement. From the largest highway trucks down to diesel pickups, when you start from a standstill you engage the clutch and after it is fully engaged then you apply throttle. Diesels have more than enough torque at idle to get the vehicle moving, even a fully loaded truck. I start my dodge pick up in 2nd gear towing a loaded car trailer with no problem. By the way it has 235,000 miles on the origional clutch.I would love to drive a smart with a clutch pedal as I'm sure with reasonable gearing a first gear start would be smoother than the chatter we experience now.Another interesting thought would be an ECU program that upon stomping on the throttle would engage the clutch and get the car moving before giving you any engine revs. The auto journalist community would go crazy trying to figure that out.

[Dang 0]

That 50% shorter interval thing is a total wildazzguess. As you know, a lot of little things are pretty subjective... so maybe not 50% but deffo noticeably quicker!

Also: the X-gauge is not affected at all. My last fill vs X-G comparison was only off by 0.17L/100km - I'm still making fine % adjustments to the X-Gauge and zeroing in on the most perfect setting.

I love my smart car!

B:sun:

But B, you have the most highly calibrated "butt-o-meter" in the business!

I'm just interested in the logic behind it, not so much trying to prove or disprove anything.

I'm actually having some challenges with the X-Gauge. I can get it super accurate on my "regular" drive, but as soon as I go on the highway, it under-reads like crazy. Roland says it's because of the way the smart over-reports the engine load. Having done a couple of experiments myself, I tend to agree with him.

Later!

Dang

[bilgladstone 13]

... I'm actually having some challenges with the X-Gauge. I can get it super accurate on my "regular" drive, but as soon as I go on the highway, it under-reads like crazy. Roland says it's because of the way the smart over-reports the engine load. Having done a couple of experiments myself, I tend to agree with him.

Earlier BETA iterations of the firmware were far less accurate even that this one; they had extreme variance in hwy v. town reporting. I expect Roland may offer further updates when he has time to work them up...B:sun: ...... giving the bottometer a rest today

[Duck 16]

I was all ready to buy (credit card in hand) when I saw this:

PowerBox CRplus

Thoughts??

-Iain

[bilgladstone 13]

I was all ready to buy (credit card in hand) when I saw this:

PowerBox CRplus

Thoughts??

-Iain

Yes, I saw that too and I guess if my "playthings" budget was bigger, I'd have bought that one. I just wasn't convinced there'd be enough actual perfromance difference between the two. OTOH if it had a cable long enough to make the adjustment from the driver's seat... oh yeah!

You can be the tester on this one, Duck

B:sun:

[Duck 16]

No, that's too steep for me.I'm actually wondering now if I should just hold off until summer. It's not like I go out and am all power hungry in the winter. It's only in the summer... I don't want to waaaaaaaait but maybe I will force myself to just this once.Where did you end up mounting the power box? It says it has to be put away from heat, but the whole engine compartment must be so hot?-Iain

[bilgladstone 13]

Where did you end up mounting the power box? It says it has to be put away from heat, but the whole engine compartment must be so hot?

There's not much choice becasue of the short cables, so it's zip-tied (oine strap included with the kit) near the other electrical cnx boxes are on the passenger side above the wheel well. Not excessively hot there, as there's a lot of spinning stuff that end of the engine and as long as you don't let the box or cables touch anything hot. I'll smap a piccie one day.B:sun:

[Dang 0]

One nice thing on the CRplus is this:

"The PowerBox CRplus is fully digital and includes a signal variation switch with multiple settings, so there's never a problem finding the setting that's best for your vehicle. You can even turn the PowerBox off while it is still connected. "

I was wondering why these guys didn't give you a "bypass" switch. That would seem to be the best of both worlds. You could drive normally most of the time, then turn the thing on when you wanted more power, without having to connect/disconnect it.

I wonder if this is a good thing though: "however, a greater boost is provided when there’s an immediate demand for acceleration." Seems like it would boost when you step on it from a start and it's still engaging the clutch. That would be bad, no?

This one includes a 31" cable for installing, so seems like you might be able to get through the firewall and put the unit in the car. Depends if the connector would fit or not, or if you could take it apart and just feed the wires through.

I found this comment on their site interesting:

Does the PowerBox work with Biodiesel fuels?

Yes. All of our PowerBoxes work with Biodiesel fuels. In fact, using a PowerBox is one of the best ways to compensate for the power loss associated with the use of biodiesel.

Is there that much loss with bio-diesel?

I have a bigger play fund than bil and duck. Might have to try one of these....

Dang

[Duck 16]

OMG I missed the thing about turning it on and off. Now I want to have a a big red button up front that says like "TURBO-ULTRA-HIGH-SPEED-7000-EX"! I had such a switch in my Corolla hatchback....It wasn't connected to anything though. -Iain

[42Kruiser 0]

Nitrous button and yes it works.

[bilgladstone 13]

Short answer: a little.

Long answer: Bio is higher Cetane than Dino. That does not translate to more power; just optimal combustion in an engine designed for fuels in the >50 Cetane range, which is higher than most pump-diesel in Canada. In blends below B25, I don't think there is a noticeable power loss.

But I do notice an increase in power after I run a B100 tank out and refill with 100% Dinofuel. Maybe in less efficient engines there is a greater variance but in the smart, at B-blends available at the pump - usually B5-B20 - I don't think this is a concern at all.

This is certainly one of the reasons I got the Box, since I almost always run in the B50 to B100 range.

B:sun:

[Dang 0]

OK, while I ordered one. We'll see how it works. I also have a remap, so it will be a remap on top of a remap, sort of....Expected Dang comment: WOW!....BOOM!...OOPS...... Dang