Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Cash

451 Owners: Bugs Or Warranty Repairs To Date?

97 posts in this topic

I am taking mine in tomorrow as the engine light has been on for about a week. I tried the old gas cap not put on proper trick and the light is still on. I sure hope it is not something too serious. I have checked the oil and it is good.Wish Sally (that is her name) luck.

Edited by TattyGranny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now with just over 11,000 kms.; the blower motor wasn't working this morning, then it did.. then after a restart it didn't; so it was pretty intermittent. It was -15'C this morning; thus couldn't wait or go without it so I brought it in right away.

They checked it and (as on the service invoice): "Blower hooked up das and ran short test there are no codes. Tested blower and blower was not operating on any speeds. Removed cover for blower motor, spun blower motor by hand and started running again. Also found wires broken at temp. sensor in heater box. Connector and blower motor are on order."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Giff Albright in State College, PA, USA; 451 smart passion CABRIO delivered 3/6/2008---everything fine for 2 weeks - 388 miles, then shifter wouldn't shift to reverse nor park, and key could not be removed. Flat bedded (140 miles) 3/21/08 to Pittsburgh by smartcenter-Pittsburgh, returned 3/28/08 same method.Under warranty, one shifter mechanism replaced --Part A451 -26--01-09-C28V - Car was built - 01/08--No other problems so far--Car is FINE!GIFF ALBRIGHT giffSCPA State College, PA, USA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No issues with Bev's 451 other than I seem to hear more squeek coming out of teh rear shocks or springs on both sides that I don't have with my 450...thought i read a thread about this on here...anyone else find the rear squeeky?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No issues with Bev's 451 other than I seem to hear more squeek coming out of teh rear shocks or springs on both sides that I don't have with my 450...thought i read a thread about this on here...anyone else find the rear squeeky?

Ya, that was my thread regarding the squeaky 451. I used silicone spray on all the door and tailgate rubber and WD-40 on the door latches. I no longer have any squeaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks Tom..we will give it a shot..but it sounds like suspension...hope it does the trick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Purchase our Smart car 2/14/08 no problems so far, 1600 miles. Round trip to work is 42 miles and we are using 1 gallon of gas. I've read on one of the Smart sites about the lambda sensor being the cause of poor gas mileage on some of the cars. The exhaust gas oxygen sensor (EGO or O2), or lambda sensor, is the key sensor in the engine fuel control feedback loop. The computer uses the O2 sensor's input to balance the fuel mixture, leaning the mixture when the sensor reads rich and richening the mixture when the sensor reads lean.Lambda sensors produces a voltage signal that recognises the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust. An oxygen sensor is essentially a battery that generates its own voltage. When hot (at least 250 degrees c.), the zirconium dioxide element in the sensor's tip produces a voltage that varies according to the amount of oxygen in the exhaust compared to the ambient oxygen level in the outside air. The greater the difference, the higher the sensor's output voltage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Build date 1-08. 3,000 on odo. No problems to date except working that damn "Detz" fastener on the engine cover. Car is perfect. :D:D A2Jack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Build date 1-08. 3,000 on odo. No problems to date except working that damn "Detz" fastener on the engine cover. Car is perfect. :D:D A2Jack.

I thought my engine cover fastener was broken until I found out how to do it properly on this forum. You have to position the cover correctly for it to work. Lift it at about 45 deg. and wiggle the back end into position then close it. When its closed correctly the duiz fastener is no problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wife came out from a call and couldn't get the shifter out of park. :angry: Called Smart Bloomfield, service truck was sent out and service manager talked the guy through a temp field fix. Then the car was driven to the service shop. (3,000 miles on this car, NA451, build date 01-08.It looks like the shifter box is turning into a real flaw of NA car.. More info here after I chat with the Bloomfield service manager tomorrow. A2Jack.

Edited by a2jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a stupid idea that was, re-inventing the SEDrive unit, when the European one has been working for a decade..... apparently without major issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wife came out from a call and couldn't get the shifter out of park. :angry: Called Smart Bloomfield, service truck was sent out and service manager talked the guy through a temp field fix. Then the car was driven to the service shop. (3,000 miles on this car, NA451, build date 01-08.It looks like the shifter box is turning into a real flaw of NA car.. More info here after I chat with the Bloomfield service manager tomorrow. A2Jack.

Actually it has nothing to do with the shifter box, it's just the plastic linkage for the button on the shifter knob itself.. it just binds.. same thing happened to me withing the first 2,500 kms. The temp fix was just to sand down the edges of the plastic linkage and it's been fine since. (I'm now at over 12,000 kms). I'm still waiting for the replacement knob but I really don't need it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually it has nothing to do with the shifter box, it's just the plastic linkage for the button on the shifter knob itself.. it just binds.. same thing happened to me withing the first 2,500 kms. The temp fix was just to sand down the edges of the plastic linkage and it's been fine since. (I'm now at over 12,000 kms). I'm still waiting for the replacement knob but I really don't need it.[/quote

There appear to be more new problems inside the shifter box, as well as the button on top.

A half turn, CCW, on the shifter collar will allow the knob to be pulled off exposing the "dog" button. Pressing the button all the way in should release the dog and allow the shifter to pull free from the notch. However, in this case it was a matter of of the shifter OVERIDEING the notch and hanging up beyond.

I'll make another post later and pass along more details on the "field fix" that allowed my wife to drive the car to the shop.

Thanks for the reply.

A2Jack.

Edited by a2jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

600km on the car and check engine light came on today with no noticeable loss of peformance to engine. Checked oil level - ok. Wheel Man what did your dealership find? I figure must be a faulty sensor...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These issues isn't very convincing. I'm still looking at the smart and considering it as my next car. I realise a forum isn't the best place cause that's where people post issues and look for help/answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A problem, now fixed after waiting a month for the replacement panel to come in, was a one inch tear in the red fabric, on the drivers side door, about elbow high.Other things, i thought were problems, appear not to be:1) A 'bum-thump' coming from the right side steering, when going into a sharp turn, such as in a parking lot, while moving at maybe 10 mph or so. ... Solved: It was a heavy large battery powered electronic air gauge, i had put in the glove box, that was banging against a music CD box. Once removing the air gauge, and re arranging the Cd, the 'bum-thump' seems to have gone, and fixed.2) Radio not sounding pure, or weak reception. I removed that heavy metal tire air gauge that may have been causing some interference from the glove box, where before it was very close to the little radio electronic plug connection in the glove box. The sound seemed to improve, a bit more clear. ... I also adjusted the treble to +4, and base to +1, and put the volume on 13, at the suggestion of a radio after-market shop, and that also seemed to help. I noticed, on one FM station, when I would put my hand, in the glove box, and near the radio side, it would greatly diminish the volume of the radio. I am wondering if the cable may be bad, or not perfect, as was noted by another owner earlier in this thread (or could have been the tire gauge causing interference). I will have to check the sound on the AM station, to see if I have the popping sound, that the earlier owner reported. If so, I may ask the dealer if they think a new cable would help. ... Last, what probably would help the sound a lot, even though now its pretty good (and better due to the above changes), is an additional pair of rear speakers. Not sure why they didn't put an extra set behind the ear (no space?), but, that likely would really help the stereo effect sound. The after market shop, said adding speakers would drain the power from the door speakers too much to add rear speakers (unless I added a whole new bigger wattage radio, which I don't), and suggested to just try it as is for while. He thought it sounded pretty good.3) One time, i had trouble getting the shifter into reverse, on a store parking lot. The problem was, I was watching the speedo orange background indicator of 'R' and D, and not the console, ... and when it didn't immediately go into 'R', I would shift it around and down to N, or D, trying to find R. So, the computer, never had time, to know what I wanted. ... Now, I simply always watch the console for the shift indication (R, N, D, or P), listen for the click and put it where I want it, wait a second or two that the computer needs to respond and know what I want, ... and no problems. Fixed. .. So, solution: watch the console, not the speedo, for changing shifter position.-----------------The negative rear wheel camber, upon a visual look but not a machine check, the dealer says is fine. ... But I still wonder, is the my smart rear wheel alignment negative camber too negative? It looks very negative, too negative, and doesn't look right. Even another person noticed this. I would like to find out, what the negative camber factory suggested spec setting range is, for the rear wheel negative camber. If its at factory spec, thats ok with me, ... I just want to be sure it right, since it looks strange.... Anyone here, know what the factory spec range is, for the rear wheel negative camber? ... I understand some negative camber (the bottom of the rear tires look much farther apart than the top, than they should be) may be good, to help tire grip in turns, ... but, it seems too much and strange on my smart rear wheels/tires, that may wear out the inside edge of the tires before it should. ... Anyone notice this, and/or have had their smart rear wheel alignment checked, to see if its 'supposed to look' like it has that much negative camber, and may be ok, as is?Thanks.

Edited by Cash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rear camber spec at neg 2* (+/- 0.5*)Here is an illustration of -2.5* . It's normal, mate. Not to worry.post-95-1208430832_thumb.gifBil :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rear camber spec at neg 2* (+/- 0.5*)Here is an illustration of -2.5* . It's normal, mate. Not to worry.post-95-1208430832_thumb.gifBil :sun:

Great work Bil. Many thanks. I've asked the dealer, and on other forums, for more than a month, and no one but you came through with the specs. Thank you.Questions:1) is the -1.5* to -2.5* specs for the 450, or 451, or both? I own the 451. I noticed you own the 450.2) do you have a photo of -1.5* negative camber, to compare to your above -2.5* photo? ... (since I'm not an alignment pro, I may be viewing this range wrongly. I.e., maybe, if the tech can hit anywhere in the -1.5* to -2.5* range, it would be ok, as 1* may be such a very small variation, at either end of the range, it wouldn't matter? ... or would it?)3) If one consistently carry's total weight of, say, 325 lbs in the smart, vs. someone else carrying 200 lbs total wt., would the heavier wt. cause the car to squash down a bit, and run with more negative camber, than the lighter total people & cargo weight? .. If so, if one carrys a heavier weight most of the time, should the camber be set a little less negative, but still in the spec range? .. Or, maybe if a heavier wt is carried all the time, maybe go even more, to say, -1.0* negative camber, a bit out of the range, to allow for the consistently more wt.?4) If my smart is now at -2.5* negative camber (I have not checked it, so I don't know what it is yet), would re setting it to -1.5* give noticably longer tire life, and less wear on the inside edges of the tire? ... I.e., if you were to guess, an estimate, for a conservative driver, no hard braking, no big hills, no big sharp hard turns nor cornering, what would you guess the tire life would be at -2.5* negative camber, vs. -1.5* negative camber?5) Someone mentioned/implied the rear axle was such, that it was set, and not adjustable. I.e., the negative camber is not adjustable. I'm not sure where I heard it, nor the quality of the source, if any. and, they very well could be wrong. ... Do you know, if in fact, the 451 rear tire negative smart camber, 'can' be set, and adjusted?Thanks. Edited by Cash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rear camber is fixed at the factory. You cannot adjust it. The tolerance is the acceptable range for putting the vehicle in service.

Due to the geometry of the DeDion Tube suspension, the camber stays the same no matter how much the springs are depressed. Proper tire selection and inflation for your driving style, road conditions, and common load will determine tread longevity.

This knowledge relates to the 450, as you mention. I have not had the opportunity to properly inspect a 451 to confirm absolutely that it is the same. :dunno:

Cheers,

B :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rear camber is fixed at the factory. You cannot adjust it. The tolerance is the acceptable range for putting the vehicle in service.

Due to the geometry of the DeDion Tube suspension, the camber stays the same no matter how much the springs are depressed. Proper tire selection and inflation for your driving style, road conditions, and common load will determine tread longevity.

This knowledge relates to the 450, as you mention. I have not had the opportunity to properly inspect a 451 to confirm absolutely that it is the same. :dunno:

Cheers,

B :sun:

Thanks.

Do you (or anyone here) have a rear view 450 photo, that shows the 450 negative camber? I would enjoy comparing the 450 negative camber, in a photo (no 450's here in the usa to view, nor the zap 450's I have never seen here), with what my 451 actual negative camber appears to be.

I don't recall, from photos, the 450's having as much negative camber, as what I see in my 451.

If I have it checked (some alignment shops will give a check for free, and only charge if you have it set/changed), and they say my negative camber is, say, -3.5*, what happens then?

... Will the dealer have a way, to POUND or BODY STRETCH it to the right spec? Or, will they want to order me a whole new smart (another 11 months wait to delivery?)? Or?

Maybe its my imagination, and I hope it is, ... but, after 1400 miles, the tires do seem to be wearing on the inside edges of the tires, more so than the outside edges. And with no flat tire spare, just a can of 'fix it flat', it would be nice if the tires last as long as possible, to the necessary replacement.

Again, of course, if the negative camber is on spec, then, I will happily forget about it, and just assume and tell inquirers, the negative camber is the good/intended engineering, designed-in race car like, great turn/cornering handling character.

Maybe, the only way to know for sure, is 1) verify the spec for the 451 as same as the 450, and 2) have an alignment shop do a free negative camber reading check, (hoping they don't mess something up, putting the atypical small short chassis on the rack, that they don't usually work with, and checking it).

Bil, when you look at your 450 negative camber from the rear, compared to other common non-smart vehicles, does it seem/appear/look to have a 'lot of' or just 'a little' negative camber (even though its in spec)?

Edited by Cash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... Bil, when you look at your 450 negative camber from the rear, compared to other common non-smart vehicles, does it seem/appear/look to have a 'lot of' or just 'a little' negative camber (even though its in spec)?

Like you, I worried a little bit early on that the rear looed a bit sply-footed. Compared to "normal" cars, that is. I made enquiries and discovered this to be perfectly normal. This picture is the nearest I have to show the negative camber on my 450.

Not a direct-from-the-rear shot, but you can clearly see the lean we're talking about. Certainly not as pronounced as the 60s VW bug. Don't fear the camber; it serves good purpose. I would wager you will find it is nowhere near -3.5*

Another member on here said he thought it looked like -5 degrees to him! He was told to do as you're proposing and actually have it properly calibrated and it turned out nowhere near 5 degrees. or 4 degrees. Or even 3 degrees.

............................ post-95-1208507379_thumb.gif

What tires do you have, Cash, and what pressure do you run at the rear? Do they just "seem" to be wearing asymmetrically or have you actually measured with a tread gauge?

And YIKES! :yikes: puh-leese don't talk about POUNDING the frame into submission..... The smart car is unique and different; my forebears would say, "Dinnae fash yersel!"

HTH,

Bil :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like you, I worried a little bit early on that the rear looked a bit sply-footed. Compared to "normal" cars, that is. I made enquiries and discovered this to be perfectly normal. This picture is the nearest I have to show the negative camber on my 450.

Not a direct-from-the-rear shot, but you can clearly see the lean we're talking about. Certainly not as pronounced as the 60s VW bug. Don't fear the camber; it serves good purpose. I would wager you will find it is nowhere near -3.5*

Another member on here said he thought it looked like -5 degrees to him! He was told to do as you're proposing and actually have it properly calibrated and it turned out nowhere near 5 degrees. or 4 degrees. Or even 3 degrees.

............................ post-95-1208507379_thumb.gif

What tires do you have, Cash, and what pressure do you run at the rear? Do they just "seem" to be wearing asymmetrically or have you actually measured with a tread gauge?

And YIKES! :yikes: puh-leese don't talk about POUNDING the frame into submission..... The smart car is unique and different; my forebears would say, "Dinnae fash yersel!"

HTH,

Bil :sun:

Thanks Bil.

Your photo looks about the same as what mine is. The rears being different from the fronts, as in your photo, and similar on mine.

And, well, if you and others were concerned, and they checked it, and was in spec, ... then, that likely means its normal, and I shouldn't worry about it.

I have the new oem tires. Picked up new delivery Feb 27, 2008, usa. Now, about 1400 miles. I think the brand is Continental (?).

The rear tires are recommended to be 36 lbs, and I have them at 38.5 lbs, as I recall. The fronts, rec at 29 lbs., and I have them at 32.5 lbs. (Interested in good mpg, but also, long tire life.)

I have not put a tread gauge on the rear tires. Only looking at them, the inside edges seem to be wearing abit, with the outside edges looking about like new. Also, I see the road dust/dirt on on the treads, that look like heavier weight on the inside than outside of the tire tread.

I probably should try to find a gauge, and see if I can find a difference, inside versus outside, of the tire tread.

Just curious. You said your friend "thought" his were -5*, and had it checked, and they were not even -3* degrees. ... What degrees did they actually check out at?

... And, did they adjust his at all, and if so, from what to what, ... or did they tell him, camber can't be adjusted, and left it as is?

Also, I wonder, if most smarts tend to have more units toward the -2.5*, or -1.5*, or down the middle -2.0*, part of the range?

It would be interesting, to have an opportunity, to view, one smart, with -2.5*, and and another smart beside it, with -1.5*. ... To see if one can see a visual difference, along the range.

Again, thanks for your photo, and sharing your own initial concerns on the negative camber. I think what you first saw, is simply what I am first seeing. Hopefully, all are likely in spec.

Thanks.

Edited by Cash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The manufacturer's recommended tire pressure has puzzled me. The 450 spec was 29psi front and rear but the 451 is 29 and 36! I would like to hear from a tires-and-handling expert on this question; someone who has had a 451 on the corner-balance scales. Surely the Mitsubishi 1L engine isn't THAT much heavier than the Mercedes -0.8L CDi, is it?

Let's see ... :google:

A generic 4-cyl Mitsu~ engine weighs in at 322 lbs, so let's presume that a 3-cyl would top out at around 250lbs (or 114kg). The 0.8L CDi comes in at 86kg so the 451 engine could indeed weigh in heavier.

An extra 62lbs of engine surely isn't enough reason by itself to pump up the rear tires an additional 24% to 36psi, is it? So why else... hm... ?

Pro:

Reduce notorious understeer.

Appear to reduce tire wear - see below!

Increase fuel mileage.

Increase luggage and occupant capacity

Con:

Harsher ride

Asymmetrical tread wear on rear

Reduce grippiness of rear tires when car not fully loaded

I'm going to [cynically] go out on a limb here and suggest that the rear 36psi spec (among other changes to the platform) is more about selling this European car to the US consumer than it is about intrinsic engineering excellence. Smoke and mirrors from the marketing department.

That's my (not so) Humble Opinion, for what it's worth. Do with it what you will.

Bil :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why would a higher tire pressure sell better to the US market? i don't get that one.typically the OEM matches the tire pressure recommendations to the OEM tire. pressures with other tires may be required to be different. i don't know if the 450 and 451 share the same tires and rim profile.i have alot of experinence with aftermarket tires since i run 35" off-road tires on my jeep wrangler. if i went by what my door sticker says for tire pressures i'd be in trouble. presently i use the chalk method. i scribe a line in chalk across the tread width on each tire and then drive a short distance with the rig loaded at it's usual load - then check the chalk mark for even wear and adjust pressures accordingly. i don't know if this would work with passenger tires as well.then again, off-road i drop the pressures into single-digits for maximum traction.my sense, without confirmation, is that there is something different between the 450 and 451's suspension geometry, tire construction, rim dimensions or something else that is requiring the higher pressure. engineers don't generally change specs like that just for pure marketing purposes (in my experience anyway).rawlus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

    Chatbox
    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More