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a2jack

CsC's Big Hold Card.

49 posts in this topic

psstt - look here!

Hi All! You are making me dizzy! :lol: or is that dizzier! :D

There seems to be two threads with much the same focus - have a look see at the other one - if possible please try to merge 'em - I can cut and paste responses back and forth but would rather spend the time on getting some more stuff happen'

Cheers,

Cameron

p.s. How the heck do you get any sort of grouping out of a bunch of smart car owners? Heck most of us are noted for being unique sort of open minded folks - otherwise we would drive silver Hondas! (sorry Spinner - I kid) As the saying goes - we are all equal but different! If you look at the BOD we have a good mix of folks, new, old, recycled.

Please let's remember - Club smart Car - for everyone who loves smart cars!

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Speedie ,

Perhaps because we are all independent thinkers, getting all of us to agree is akin to trying to herd cats.

No one promised you it would be easy!

This site will continue to be fun and relevant, don't fret.

Best

Blair

Edited by B Tisshaw

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No expectations it would be easy - but I do enjoy bugging my Bro in law - my cats come when called - his dog doesn't :lol: So I guess I can at least sometimes convince cats that doing something is okay with them - amature cat wrangler?Cheers,Cameron

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Sorry.. I'm A dog person. Let's save that for another topic :rolleyes: Anyway, I cant say personally too much about the 450 or the 451 as I dont have mine yet. My combined diving of smarts over the last 2 years of test drives with a ZAP car, a 451 on the road tour and at the dealer was maybe 20 minutes. But what I can say is that all at CSC know their stuff and I'm learming things about these machines that you wouldnt normally know in the course of driving. We all do share one thing in common here...our love or what ever for the smart. That should never change.I plan to hang around as CSC is a great place to be. So what if the member base isnt made up of all those people who signed up to be an "insider" when they inquired about smarts. Yeah , I signed up, but more as a curiosity and I hate their site. I know that the BOD will make the right decision. No doubt!

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I love this site the most out of all the smart sites out there. However I do wish it intigrated the lower 48 a little bit better. I feel a little left out of the social aspects of this fine forum. That's it really.... lil less Canada and a little more North America. :)

Edited by Fowvay

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I'm with you on that, Fowvay. And I believe our administration and most members are, as well. The discussions and decisions were made long ago to not make some members feel like outsiders by constantly having flags waved in their faces. A few members just don't understand it, I guess.

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Well Fovay - we will work on that - since the smart technically is just emerging in the States the past focus has been where it had sufficient numbers.We have had several enjoyable ventures into the States and it is shaping up to look like we will have a Western event in Washington State come October (probably Leavenworth - something about bratwurst and me).I have some cool ideas for our southern friends - once I get some time I will see what I can do about elaborating. I know that the Jelly Belly factory just outside of San Fran would be a great place to visit - tie it in with a loop tour out towards Sacramento and down to the cutoff that takes you to the Blackhawk Car museum for a photo op (they do that for car clubs).So bear with us - we won't neglect you. Heck you just have to say Blue Flame - not even the complete name for the BBQ in Port Angeles and Gerri has the car packed!Cheers,Cameronp.s. - For the record - My Brother lives in the States - part of my family homesteaded in North Dakota - and I have other family and friends all over the place - sort of the truth for a lot of people on both sides of the line - so technically the border gets a bit blurry for some of us.

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Kitty asked about the search for a thread thing...I say, discussion forums doom quality content in the long run, making it less accessible, less concise, and less reliable. The true winner for mechanical and technical info, if you want an example, is evilution's site.Forums are good for discussions, and the initial launch into technical stuff, don't get me wrong. But at some point, you need to consolidate that content and get it our of the forums into something better.Anyway, that's my opinion on it.

Edited by smartzuuk

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SZ. I disagree. IMO an open forum is the best place to discuss "Nut and Bolts" issues. Although, you may, or may not be interested in this aspect of Smart car ownership, it deserves a prominent place on this board. It should never be "Farmed Out",or to use the modern term "outsourced". Many of us, myself included. want to now what makes our cars run. Even though we may not want to do our own work we want to know what's going on when we take our car to the dealer. It's not that we don't trust our dealer to fix only what's broken, but lets just say they have been known to fudge a little. :lol: Nuts and bolts discussion is our only source for "real time" failures and fixes on our cars. Remember there are no how to books on the NA451s. A2Jack.

Edited by a2jack

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SZ. I disagree. IMO an open forum is the best place to discuss "Nut and Bolts" issues. Although, you may, or may not be interested in this aspect of Smart car ownership, it deserves a prominent place on this board. It should never be "Farmed Out",or to use the modern term "outsourced".

*snip*

Nuts and bolts discussion is our only source for "real time" failures and fixes on our cars. Remember there are no how to books on the NA451s. A2Jack.

I don't believe he meant that we shouldn't discuss the nuts and bolts stuff on the forums, or that we should not have forums (please correct me if I am mistaken, smartzuuk), but that once a correct solution to a problem is found in a discussion, for example, the solution should be post in a visible place on the site and not left buried in the forums. That way, people get great discussion, but if Joe Websurfer comes along and want to know the answer to Question X, he can find it much more quickly in a section for Answers to Questions About X than slowly searching the forums to find old discussions about it. Especially since the IPB search function does not assume a Boolean AND.

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Especially since the IPB search function does not assume a Boolean AND.

Yeah, having it default to "OR" is pretty annoying. I know the logic is probably that, by default, it is better to return a search result set that is too broad rather than nothing at all, but I just hate wading through pages and pages of search results....much rather get nothing and adjust my query. Sure, it is simple to add the proper search operators(and I do) to the query but most people either don't know how to or just can't be bothered...I'm an IT guy and a librarian and I can certainly attest to that. Does anyone know if you can change the default search to "AND" with this software??Along similar lines, I'd like to see the query results default to posts rather than threads as this would also cut out lots of browsing. Again this can be changed using the advanced search functionality, but... Does anyone know if this behaviour can be changed to the default? Really, I think, if we could change the basic search so that it defaults to "AND" and so that it returns posts rather than threads, then searching will become so much easier for the majority of people. I just don't know if the software allows this...does anyone??cheersgarth

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Really, I think, if we could change the basic search so that it defaults to "AND" and so that it returns posts rather than threads, then searching will become so much easier for the majority of people. I just don't know if the software allows this...does anyone??

Offhand, I don't think so, but don't quote me as I don't know for sure since most of my admin/modding work is done on vBulletin, which defaults to AND.I just hunted around the IPB site, AdminZone and Invision Modding and came up blank in regard to a way to modify the search, though there's still a chance it's an admin function. CsC Admins, is there a way?I add the + operators too, but most often I forget that CsC requires them and just type the words normally, expecting AND. Then I get pages of irrelevant results and remember that I need to put the + in there. :doh: I agree with garthD that more people, especially forum newbies, may benefit from the search displaying results as posts by default. While personally I generally prefer results as threads as the default, because usually reading the thread title or the first post will tell me what I'll find in the thread, but I miss a feature to search within a long thread once I've found it, so default display as posts would probably benefit the majority.

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Uh - no - please don't post the whole discussion - just the final outcome - right now there are a kazillion (a number largely used in IT to describe anything that amounts to more than the 20 digits most of us come equipped with) concepts dancing around in the thread. Let boil it down to some meaningful requests and then they can be actioned - trying to address ether is challenging at best. I will get the request area set up soon for structured requests so run it up the flag pole a few more times and then when it is solid - fire in a request. Meanwhile - keep the discussions going - the needed content will emerge eventually.And remember - there are constraints on what can and cannot be done with the software - so if it is easy and not a big deal - probably will be a soon thing - if it requires major investments in labour and software - then that is more of a long term thing.Cheers,Cameron

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RE: Searching.There isn't anywhere in the admin control panel where you can modify that. Doesn't mean one couldn't modify the files directly though.We can approach Invision with the question and see if they have any solutions other than that, but I am thinking messing with the files is a possibility.Remember that returning every single post with a keyword (which could be as vague as "smart 451") also takes up more resources, which is probably one of the key reasons it defaults to topics.

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For our site to gather more posts we must look to Newcomers. The old guard seems incapable of generating new ideas, other than moving around the deck chairs.IMO. Newcomers to our site are put off by a wall of uninteresting text. The first page is usually press articles (many as old as the hills) most negative. Next they come to the Forums. Another sea of text with too many choices. All very boring.Our new comers, have either just ordered a car or are thinking about it. They want to know about their soon to be Smart 4-2. They have lots of questions, but they can't even form them as yet, let alone enter into a discussion in a specific forum.I advocate a more open General Discussion forum with a little of everything of interest to the new, and old Smart fan. Make that forum #1 on list. Eliminate having to wade through rows and rows of text before they come to what they want to read about, ( but don't know what that is yet until they see it). Stop trying to "Salt The Mine" with posts by insiders trying to generate action. Look at News and Entertainment, that forum is a joke. Stop this nonsense of moving posts. Unless the thread users request it. Moving a thread destroys content. For example: I now very carefully choose the words for my post headings to avoid getting dumped in one of bottom basement forums and my post never seen by the main stream smart fans.In short there is work to do here. I still predict as the NA market grows CsC can grow back to it's former glory. There have been over 10'000 Na451s delivered in the US and 4,000 in Canada. How can we miss ? A2Jack

Edited by a2jack

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IMO. Newcomers to our site are put off by a wall of uninteresting text. The first page is usually press articles (many as old as the hills) most negative. Next they come to the Forums. Another sea of text with too many choices. All very boring.

Wall of text? The main page looks pretty sparse to me, though I agree with you 100% that it's boring and it contains practically no information that's either helpful or useful to people just finding the site or those of us who have been here a while.

In fact, the main page itself is probably a turn off to many people, because it looks like the last time the site was updated was January 3, 2008 as that's the first date people see because the "Latest Discussions" part is below the fold (aka you have to scroll down to even see it) which makes it look like we're a very out of date website.

I advocate a more open General Discussion forum with a little of everything of interest to the new, and old Smart fan. Make that forum #1 on list. Eliminate having to wade through rows and rows of text before they come to what they want to read about, ( but don't know what that is yet until they see it).

Agreed, see my related comments in the list below ;)

Stop trying to "Salt The Mine" with posts by insiders trying to generate action. Look at News and Entertainment, that forum is a joke.

I like the idea of the News & Entertainment forum, because it allows me to find articles about the Smart car that I might not otherwise find. However, you are correct that there isn't nearly as much content in that forum as there could be. This goes for both the original post and the comments that follow it.

I prefer it when the article, or a snippet from the article, or a summary of the article is post in the thread itself; I don't like it when there's just a link to an article and no actual content in the thread itself - most people want to know if a link is worth their time before they click on it. I also think that it's a fairly negative forum. A lot of the threads posted are about an article or blog post where the author said something negative about smart cars, but the thread here consists solely of a few people saying "tsk tsk they don't get it", but there's not much actual discussion happening at all.

As such, there could probably be a better format for posting links to articles like this than a discussion form. There has been talk of a CsC blog - links to articles about smarts could be a section on the blog, rather than taking up room on the forums.

I'm not saying there's no discussion happening in that forum, but the vast majority of the threads post there have 0 replies.

Stop this nonsense of moving posts. Unless the thread users request it. Moving a thread destroys content. For example: I now very carefully choose the words for my post headings to avoid getting dumped in one of bottom basement forums and my post never seen by the main stream smart fans.

But... making sure a topic title is descriptive and helpful is a good thing! ^_^ It helps everyone reading the forum.

I'm also not sure what you mean by moving a thread destroying content, as usually threads are moved whole, rather than being split up. Misplaced threads clutter up a forum and prevent people from finding what they need. For example, if a person wanted to find a certain thread about gas mileage, they'll look in the "enviro-mileage" forum, but if the thread was originally mistakenly post in the Dealer Showcase for example, they'll never find it! Putting threads where they belong, rather than leaving them in inappropriate forums is usually considered part of running a good community.

I agree that the forums need a major revamp, though. Three of the four forums in the top CsC Community Discussions section are not even Smart car specific! I mean, we have the Auto Talk forum ("for all discussions about non-smart automobiles"), and the Community Chatter ("For off-topic posting.") and the Eco-Matters forum ("Not necessarily smart car specific"). These non-Smart things being at the top of the page doesn't really promote the idea that CsC is a club and website about Smart Cars.

Many random suggestions about the website/forums (some repeats, no particular order):

[*]Consistency with forum naming to avoid looking sloppy (eg enviro-mileage" is not capitalized, and some words in "General vehicle operation and maintenance" are not capitalized, but all other forms are)

[*] Remove the "Administration for Regional Groups forum" - it has 0 threads, and it's given function (asking the Admin to create new Regional forums) could be achieved by asking in the Site Feedback forum or by PM.

[*]Adjust the order of the forums to put the important, Smart-related discussion forums at the very top. Take a cue from the number of threads in each form. Don't order solely based on that, but take a look at what forums are the most popular - General Discussion about Smarts and General vehicle operation and maintenance. These should be at the top of the list, because they're obviously where more people go anyway. Next would be "Modifications and Performance" (not News & Entertainment, because it's mainly just a bunch of external links).

[*]Move the Introductions forum down. I love reading Introductions from new people, but that's not exactly the #1 most important forum. If you;re worried about newbies missing it, and posting their intros all over the place, an easy fix is to automatically send them a PM when they join CsC.

[*]Send a welcoming PM to new members that could contain a link to the rules and a reminder to read them, lets them know that they have to ask a mod to become a Regular Member (since this is not like most forums), and it could also contain something like "Welcome to Club Smart Car! Please take the time to introduce yourself in our Introductions forum!" (and have the intro forum be linked like that so they can find it in less than a second if they want to post an intro)

[*]Review/revamp the moderation team. Some of the mods have not logged in for months, so their forums are going unmoderated. This doesn't seem to currently be a problem, but since we're trying to gain many more posting members, it could become a large problem in the future.

[*]Either move the Archives forum to the very bottom of the forum list, or get rid of it entirely.

[*]Do something with the Policy Making forum. It says it's "temporary", and it hasn't been posted in for 7+ months, and the threads in it sound exactly like the ones in the Site Feedback forum. The two could be merged into the Site Feedback & Policies forum or something.

[*] Remove the Articles link until there's actually some articles in it. Newbies will expect it to contain content, and will be disappointed when they see it's totally empty except for a couple test posts.

[*]Solicit articles from members to fill up the Articles section if you want to use it. Put some of the great How-To posts in there for reference.

I will post more in a second post; this one was getting unwieldy. :wacko:

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Here's the rest of my list:

[*]Create a Smart FAQ and link to it from the main page. Again, this would be great for newbies. The one over on SCoA is alright, but it's very clunky, but something along those lines, answering simple questions about the Smart would be very helpful.

[*]Add events to the site Calendar (with a link to the event thread). The calendar is currently useless as it just lists a zillion forum member birthdays. Since birthdays are displayed at the bottom of the main page, and in each member's Profile, these could be removed from the Calendar to make room for events. Activate the permissions for members to do this themselves (I just tried a test event on the calendar, and it does not appear) or appoint a mod to add all the events.

[*]Rewrite the blurb on the main CsC page. At least alter the part that says "Most people start with the forums, and then they dig deeper into our site for more specific information" as there is currently nothing except for the forums! Heck, ask members to write and submit blurbs and then take the best parts and put them into a shiny new CsC site description that's helpful to new visitors.

[*]Put the Marketplace section below the Region Events section. Events tend to involve more people than classified ads.

[*]Have printable CsC cards available for download so that members can print them out and promote the club that way*

[*]Put something more interesting on the main page than old news article links. Something with visual appeal, like a "CsC Smart of the Month" or something, where each month a different CsC member's Smart car is chosen, and a photo and small blurb about it appear on the main page (previous SotM could be archived for viewing). It's not like it's hard to get members to submit photos of their Smarts! ;)

[*]Have a Passion vs Pure vs Cabriolet comparison on the main page (or a snippet of one with a Read More link to the full article). Many people just considering a purchase don't know all the differences, and it would help them in their decision.

[*]Have a Photo Gallery! IPB even has an integrated gallery available. Let members post photos of their car(s) for all to see! Possibly restrict it to Regular Members to prevent spam. Having all the photos in one place, instead of scattered throughout a hundred different threads in the forums would be a great resource! A handful of random photos could display on the main page, to help keep content fresh.

[*]Have some official downloadable link images and text so those of us with our own websites can link to and promote CsC! (Yeah, yeah, people can just do their on their own, but official link images, and specific text containing appropriate key words will help our SEO, plus more people are likely to do it if the work is already done for them! ;) )

* Just so I'm not all talk and no action here, here's a quick example I whipped up. Kinda lame, but it's a first draft.

Posted Image

The "Referred by: _________" is for the member giving it out to write their username there so that the people they give it to can find them on the forums! ^_^

Note: This is a low-quality sample image and is not suitable for download. I can provide high-quality .psd or .eps or .tiff or whatever if need be.

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Quoting Kitty:"I'm also not sure what you mean by moving a thread destroying content, as usually threads are moved whole, rather than being split up. Misplaced threads clutter up a forum and prevent people from finding what they need. For example, if a person wanted to find a certain thread about gas mileage, they'll look in the "enviro-mileage" forum, but if the thread was originally mistakenly post in the Dealer Showcase for example, they'll never find it! Putting threads where they belong, rather than leaving them in inappropriate forums is usually considered part of running a good community."A2Jack replys: Kitty. I agree with a lot of what you say. But one point we might all talk about some more is new comers first read. One of the most frequently used threads by Nu-Com''s (New-comer's) on other forums is. "What is your gas mileage" ? followed by, "can it be driven on the freeway"? then "what problems are you having"? and of course the topper, "What did you name your car". All different questions and probably unasked.Many people are too shy to post on strange forums, and just will stumble around trying to find something of interest. They will not find much here unless they sort through many category's of forums. We need to make it easy for them. Nu-Com's should be hit in the face with answers the instant they come up on site. We need to give them pictures and a non-threatening place to come for answers to unasked questions ,and IMO, it should be in one place,one forum. Photos should be scattered through out the posts, as they add color and interest. We need a new approach. Throw out old ideas of what was once considered "running a good community".Be daring and different. The new Insiders site has been running without forum Mods and is now growing like wildfire. Take a look up there.More points of interest... Many woman are now active posters on the Insiders site. SCOA has greatly decreased Moderating and rarely moves posts. Change is coming to other Smart boards. Let's help change come here too. :) BTW.You are right. It's past time for these "Site improvement threads to end on General Dis, Perhaps we can talk more on another place on the forum after we digest all this. Best Regards. A2Jack

Edited by a2jack

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Hi All,Don't have time to respond at length - yes there are issues - yep the BOD is tracking and priortizing them - nope we won't keep everyone happy nor should we try - the idea is to make it work for the majority of people - and yes the forums will continue to be moderated - sorry - there is some stuff that gets put in multiple or inapproriate places - there has to be a degree of structure - and yes the search facility is lacking but we have that on the list.Also in the works - a re-vamp of the opening page (perhaps a design contest), FAQ/Workshop pages/Psuedo wiki (with info only - discussion of the topics can go elsewhere) - we have some catching up to do and some refinement - and those that comment should come prepared with a jar of elbow grease - 'cause we will be recruiting help.Minutes for the BOD meeting will be out shortly (tomorrow night I hope).Thanks and have patience - this stuff will be thought out and implemented properly - that takes some time and even with modern technology there is still only 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.1 seconds in a day.Cheers,Cameron

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One of the most frequently used threads by Nu-Com''s (New-comer's) on other forums is. "What is your gas mileage" ? followed by, "can it be driven on the freeway"? then "what problems are you having"? and of course the topper, "What did you name your car". All different questions and probably unasked.

Many people are too shy to post on strange forums, and just will stumble around trying to find something of interest. They will not find much here unless they sort through many category's of forums. We need to make it easy for them. Nu-Com's should be hit in the face with answers the instant they come up on site.

I agree that these are probably some of the top questions, but since the questions/answers tend to stay the roughly same, a thread in a discussion forum about them can get quite stale if it's the only source of that information. An FAQ or wiki format works very well for these types of questions that get asked over and over and the answers rarely change, and would keep these questions right out in front of their faces so they can find them within seconds of stumbling across CsC.

I also agree that many people are too shy to post on strange forums, especially if they feel their question is "stupid" (even though it's not) because they don't know anyone there and they don't know if they'll be made fun of for asking. A nice non-threatening FAQ list can address all these questions without making people hunt for them inside the forums (sticky threads tend to get glossed over as the posting date grows old), and without forcing them to ask questions before they are ready.

The FAQ at SCoA is a bit awkward, but it does address many newbie questions such as mileage and cost, and even addresses questions people may be too embarassed to ask, such as "what does cdi mean?".

I think it's poorly done there because you have to go to a new page to read the answer and because the order of the questions leaves a lot to be desired. There's no way "What are the milestones regarding the Smart?" is the #1 newbie question about the Smart; they should be in the (approximate) order of importance to new and potential Smart owners.

Also, just so I'm clear, I'm not saying that an FAQ/wiki is the only place for these questions. There should also be discussion threads about them. Discussion is great, and is a site's lifeblood. But a list of common questions and answers, all neat and tidy in one place tends to be more helpful to brans new people who may be intimidated by hunting through a forum (even one single forum) to find answers to their questions. A list also lets them get answers to questions that they don't even know they want to know, as you said!

Same with the photo gallery suggestion. I'm sorry if it came across that way; I did not intend to imply that members should only be allowed to post photos in the Gallery, I assumed they would still be peppered throughout forum posts as they are now, but a Gallery is a good place to compile various photos for easy browsing. I love seeing photos of other people's Smart cars! It's just way easier to see them when they are all in one place in addition to providing colour and interest in the forum threads. ^_^

For example, I'd love a gallery compilation of all the header images here at CsC. Sure, I could slog through the 41 pages of the submission thread looking for interesting photos (who has that kind of time?) or look at the server directory the images are located in (they are only listed by filename there, so you can't see a preview of an image before you click on it - boring, and takes way too long to go through!). A nice gallery album would be quite nifty for people to look through.

When I was checking out the other Smart sites to see how they worked, I spent quite a lot of time browsing the SCoA gallery, because I find the photos interesting. I would not have spent nearly as much time over there if the only way for me to see photos was to go through a whole bunch of individual threads looking for pictures.

Most of my suggestions are intended to work along side the forums, and were not intended to replace aspects of the forum. ^_^

The new Insiders site has been running without forum Mods and is now growing like wildfire. Take a look up there.

More points of interest... Many woman are now active posters on the Insiders site. SCOA has greatly decreased Moderating and rarely moves posts.

Change is coming to other Smart boards. Let's help change come here too. :)

Not sure what the point about women has to do with anything, but I'll concede that generally forums about cars are dominated by a male population ;) and that I love how there are a lot of female posters on the Smart-related sites. ^_^

SCoA has 6 forums total - it's rather difficult to put a thread in the wrong spot, so they'd have fewer misplaced threads in the first place. It also currently has a very few posts at all - 490 threads total right now, as it's only a small part of the total "social networking"-based site. However, yes I agree that it's growing rapidly. And while I agree that fewer = better when it comes to individual forums, I don't think we need to pare down CsC to a mere 6 forums because we have lots of great stuff here that's not really covered at all over at the SCoA forums.

Don't have time to respond at length - yes there are issues - yep the BOD is tracking and priortizing them - nope we won't keep everyone happy nor should we try

True! I'm not expecting everyone to fawn over my suggestions, but since no one has told me to STFU yet, I thought I'd give some specific ones, rather than just saying "we need to do something to encourage new members" because everyone already knows that. ^_^ It's not very helpful when people complain about something but don't have any suggestions or examples to help out those actually responsible for it. It would be pretty rude of me to comment that the main page is boring and dated without offering suggestions as to what might help it be more attractive and informative. ^_^

Side note about the pseudo-wiki you were talking about - if you do it in that format, please have an index page or something that lists all the entries! I love wikis, but they're mostly helpful if you already know what you're looking for. ;)

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Kitty. I didn't say SCOA is growing. I said Insiders is growing "like wildfire". Take a look!As for my comment on women posters. Insiders is getting more than most car sites, and their participation is very active on many subjects. In short, "Smart USA Insiders" is doing something right.Consider, the purchase decision on a Smart car is very much driven by women. In fact, when driving around most of the attention paid to our unique little cars is coming from women. Young and old. A2Jack.

Edited by a2jack

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Kitty. I didn't say SCOA is growing. I said Insiders is growing "like wildfire". Take a look!

My bad!

I typed the wrong abberviation, even though I was talking about Smart Insiders, so my comments still stand (6 forums, more social-network based, etc). I can't edit my post to correct it, though. <_<

^_^

I like that the Smart struck a perfect balance between the "manly man" cars and the "girly girl" cars, so everyone can drive it and have fun with it. ^_^

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