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bilgladstone

CCV recirculating catch tank

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Great news that it is usable and fixes the problem! :) I think its funny that I read Bil's posts that the 42 Draft Designs part is what we've been looking for and then the doorbell rang. It was UPS with my FRS catch tank! :lol: Looks like I might be making a return. :)

I have tried that style of vented tank. They seem to work OK on the gassers, but my cdi experience was that the filter quickly got absolutely plugged with condensate and then didn't work at all.Just my personal experience... YMMV.Hey... but you have a gasser, right Brian? Todd in WA uses something much like that on his and it works fine. I think if you mount it with the vent higher than the crankcase outlet - high as you can - and as far from the crankcase as you can, it ought to work fine.Bil :senile: Edited by bilgladstone

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I think I remember seeing a picture of his setup with that catch can. He the vent side hooked up to a filter if I remember correctly. And that filter was up next to the airbox. Well where the airbox would be, but he had some sort of conic air filter setup. :) Thanks for the reminder. :speak_cool:

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So before I left for the 1st Annual (Inter)Nationals event in Kansas City (technically Lenexa), KS, I decided to finally finish my oil catch can install and add my new stereo head unit.

Here are some pictures from the catch can install:

Part of the engine where burnt oil vapor is sent back into air intake/turbo:

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This pipe goes from the above area of the engine to the air intake pipe and is what dumps the burnt oil vapor into the clean air (and then turbo which leads to the intercooler which makes all of us :( ). As you can see, it had broken where the larger area becomes smaller. Almost a clean break too.

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ADDED 10 Aug 2010: Crankcase vent tubing. I used heater hose, an elbow (visible in a photo below) and the included tubing to go from crankcase vent to the catch can.

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Crankcase Vent Hose by briandewitt, on Flickr

ADDED 10 Aug 2010: An overview of the hose runs. Foreground goes to catchcan, background hose goes to air filter installed next to airbox.

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Catch Can Hose Runs by briandewitt, on Flickr

Here is the catch can that I installed:

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Here is the can attached to its temporary mounting space:

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and close up:

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ADDED 10 Aug 2010: And a picture of the air filter for the catch can.

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Catch Can Air Filter by briandewitt, on Flickr

Edited by briand

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Nice job, Brian :thumbup: So... return goes back to TIK? Makes me want to finish mine off... too many things on the go just now tho'.Let us know how it works out as time goes on...Bil :sun:

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Thanks Bil. I drove it almost 2000 miles since the install of the catch can (to 1st Annual [inter]Nationals and back). It was full before I returned home. :( Unfortunately return does not go back to the TIK. I've completely sealed off the TIK inlet spot. There is no filtering element inside the can so I have a small external air filter up high next to the air box. I will take a few more pictures by this weekend.I also had to put some copper grease/anti-seize on the little drain plug of the can. It gets stuck so easily and feels cheapish.

Edited by briand

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Thanks Bil. I drove it almost 2000 miles since the install of the catch can (to 1st Annual [inter]Nationals and back). It was full before I returned home. :( Unfortunately return does not go back to the TIK. I've completely sealed off the TIK inlet spot. There is no filtering element inside the can so I have a small external air filter up high next to the air box. I will take a few more pictures by this weekend.I also had to put some copper grease/anti-seize on the little drain plug of the can. It gets stuck so easily and feels cheapish.

Try mounting the catch can higher than the crankcase outlet...

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I was thinking about trying a higher mounting point for the can, however, one thought bugs me.When the car cools down after running, the burnt oil vapor will condense in the line from the crank case to the can correct? Will the condensed oil sitting in the line (and potentially rolling towards the crankcase vent) be a problem?

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I was thinking about trying a higher mounting point for the can, however, one thought bugs me.When the car cools down after running, the burnt oil vapor will condense in the line from the crank case to the can correct? Will the condensed oil sitting in the line (and potentially rolling towards the crankcase vent) be a problem?

Nope. No problem with that.

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Except in below zero temperatures, car parked outside....where the condensate sludge can freeze up, causing the crankcase pressure to go high enough to blow the oil out of the engine's seals. This has been an issue with badly designed CCV systems on other cars.

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I found in my first winter's experiments in 2006(7?) that indeed the moisture laden condensate can freeze (especially if the catch tank is mounted down beneath the engine compartment) and obstruct the tubing.

Far from blowing engine seals, what happens is that the crankcase gets a little pressurized and then oil is forced up the path of least resistance - the dipstick tube - and sprays all over the engine compartment! Ask me how I know that ;)

That's another reason why I recommend finding a placement within the warm engine compartment. That way, even in frigid weather, warm tubing will allow drain-back before it freezes.

Anything that can drain back into the rocker cover from the short length of tube between there and the catch tank is stuff that came out of there in the first place.

B :senile:

Edited by bilgladstone

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Wow. :D It does snow here in the metro Atlanta Georgia area in the winter. It does get to below 0*C sometimes too. However, my cars are garage kept so I'm thinking this may not need to be a concern for me. :mellow:

Edited by briand

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LOL, on Peugeot 405s with the gauze oil strainer in place in the oil filler/PCV, the dipstick is so tightly held in that the oil seals leak first! Fortunately I performed the service bulletin before the first Kootenay winter in 1994.

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Ok I am dead on my feet after two hours of screwing around with my catch tank install. And frustrated as hell! This could have been complete and done with decent tools, but noooo... I am working with worn out 30 year old tools and cheap new Chinese crap with loose joints and rounded edges and cheap steel and nothing works like it should.So, it' still not complete, and the bracket is loose and the can is not connected. Done. I am done for today and maybe for another couple of weeks it will have to just stay the way it is.Grrr.....:senile:

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Ok I am dead on my feet after two hours of screwing around with my catch tank install. And frustrated as hell! This could have been complete and done with decent tools, but noooo... I am working with worn out 30 year old tools and cheap new Chinese crap with loose joints and rounded edges and cheap steel and nothing works like it should.So, it' still not complete, and the bracket is loose and the can is not connected. Done. I am done for today and maybe for another couple of weeks it will have to just stay the way it is.Grrr.....:senile:

I feel for ya Bil. My husband and I just spent 4 hours doing a job that would normally take 30mins.. We re-ran our plumbing hot/cold water lines in our holiday trailer. The guy who owned it before us had his hands in it and nothing matched, was the proper size and he used waaayyy too many hose clamps.. Now we have a lot of spares.Carry on.Debbie

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I just had a similar experience Bil. This is proving to be a tough nut to crack. My Dad and I installed gaskets and rtv on the oil pan and where the oil dipstick tube meets the engine while trying to track down an oil leak. That seemed to fix it however, a third of the way on my drive home from my parents, I noticed little dots of oil on the back window. It seems the stupid catch can I have is still giving me some leaking. I imagine its the fact that I don't have any sort of substance in the can. I have tried to shove some in the holes, but not much gets inside the can and not in the big clumpy ball we need it to be to grab (and hold onto) the oil vapour. It appears once the can is about half full, the oil vapour just leaks out of the air filter mounted next to the airbox and gets all over the back of the car. Stupid catch can stupidness. :(

Edited by briand

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Could you use Goretex or fine silk screen (from silk screen printing of course) or even aluminum window screen to cover the vent? This would cause the liquid to form droplets inside the tank perhaps.

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I just had a similar experience Bil. This is proving to be a tough nut to crack. My Dad and I installed gaskets and rtv on the oil pan and where the oil dipstick tube meets the engine while trying to track down an oil leak. That seemed to fix it however, a third of the way on my drive home from my parents, I noticed little dots of oil on the back window. It seems the stupid catch can I have is still giving me some leaking. I imagine its the fact that I don't have any sort of substance in the can. I have tried to shove some in the holes, but not much gets inside the can and not in the big clumpy ball we need it to be to grab (and hold onto) the oil vapour. It appears once the can is about half full, the oil vapour just leaks out of the air filter mounted next to the airbox and gets all over the back of the car. Stupid catch can stupidness. :(

Yes, it is amazing how much oily condensate comes out of the CCV system. No wonder some people have had their intercooler fill to failure! The catch can tubing has to be big-bored - 3/4" - and the tank either has to be large, i.e. like a litre/quart, or be emptied quickly and easily fairly often, or both.I am positing a hollow, tapered expansion chamber between the valve cover and the catch tank inlet to let the bulk of the condensate to just drain back... but my build is on hold until the penny drops.B :sun:

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Could you use Goretex or fine silk screen (from silk screen printing of course) or even aluminum window screen to cover the vent? This would cause the liquid to form droplets inside the tank perhaps.

Certainly not with the cdi. A fine screen will get occluded with film almost immediately!B :senile:

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I think I may have found a can with a good connectors and no drain plug to allow oil vapor leakage. Billet PrototypesI sent an email via the contact form asking for their smallest size can and within minutes I got a response saying:

If you want smallest, I have my normal one, with a Shorty bottom. It's 2 1/2 wide by 3 inches tall. It's about the smallest you are gonna get out there.

I'm going to send them pictures of my gasser 450's engine area (back of the car removed) and see if they can help us come up with a solution!! :)

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I think I may have found a can with a good connectors and no drain plug to allow oil vapor leakage.

Billet Prototypes

I sent an email via the contact form asking for their smallest size can and within minutes I got a response saying:

I'm going to send them pictures of my gasser 450's engine area (back of the car removed) and see if they can help us come up with a solution!! :)

Interesting... Nice find, Brian! I see it doesn't have a drain but the bottom part unscrews for emptying. The trick will be to mount it in a location where you can easily reach it to empty the cup - somehow adjacent the EGR maybe? I like that it's only 3" height!

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Meantime, I am having to teach myself a little about brazing in order to fabricate a sort of pre-condensor I have in mind...

Bil :senile:

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Meantime, I am having to teach myself a little about brazing in order to fabricate a sort of pre-condensor I have in mind...

Funny. My Dad and I have been thinking about this catch can and he brought up how a lot of GM cars had an oil/water separator. He said that maybe we could use something like that, or create something like that, for the catch can. I guess we were beating around the idea of a pre-condensor! :) I've sent a message and requested a place to send pictures of the engine area with my current setup. Hopefully they respond with some ideas

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New product from Moroso looks interesting! Compact, easy-empty.

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LINKY

Bil :senile: Edited by bilgladstone

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Hey Bill,That unit has a 3/8 inlet and outlet, would that still work with our CDI's??What's the size of the OEM hose that this would connect to?

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I would be interested to know what prompted the search for a CCV catch tank design. Were you seeing problems with the turbo or IC?On my "other" MB turbo diesel (no IC), the early cars simply vented the valve cover to the air inlet before the turbo. Later generation, has a swirl type separator in the centre of the air cleaner. Collected oil is drained back to the crankcase, vapour continues with air into intake. On my 300D, I have an '82 engine and an '85 air filter. The engine crankcase has no return port, so I have the drain on the air cleaner plugged and just let the oil build up. Some of it is probably picked up in the air and enters the engine. But every now and then, I open the air filter and suck the collected oil out. The OM617 engine takes about 7 litres of oil, so loosing a little doesn't matter much. But on the smart - does the oil collected amount to enough to be noticed on the dipstick?Seems that ideally there should be a small separator that separates oil and allows it to run back to engine below and allow vapour to continue to air intake. Would excessive venting perhaps be an indication of other problems? On MB diesels, blow by is checked by placing hand over oil filler with engine warm and running - there should be minimal pressure on a good engine.

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