Cdi Electric Heater

[tolsen 630]

I am looking for info on the electric heater which is supposed to be turned on when heater slider is moved all the way to the right. An indication light is turned on in the instrumentation panel obviously telling me the electric heater is on. I have not noticed any change in heat output and also there does not seem to be any additional load on the engine when I turn this electric heater on. Electric heater appears to be relay operated since there is a clicking sound when switched on.Does anybody know where the electric heater element is located?The car is a 2002 Smart Cabrio Cdi.

[MikeT 744]

It only works below certain ambient temperatures and below certain coolant temperatures. Some people in Canada says it doesn't work even at a cold start at minus 20 but mine does. I guess if it gets below 5 degrees you could try it out. Check the fuse too.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Mike T

[Retired RCAF 0]

I read on here a couple years ago that the electric heater only puts out something like a max of 400 watts. So you better be pretty cold to feel any of it at that rate.

[tolsen 630]

Can't find any fuse for that heater. Do you know where the heater element is located? Does it heat air or coolant water?

[MikeT 744]

It heats air...and you're right I don't see any fuse that's specifically for it. Strange.

[bilgladstone 13]

If you stare intently at the little double loop-de-loop dash light, it makes you feel MUCH warmer.

[tolsen 630]

Hi there,Many thanks for your replies. Due to the absense of a fuse I think the elecric heater must be part of the thermo plunger. Last year I painted my dash black and had the opportunity to have a close inspection of the heater assembly as complete dashbord was removed from the Smart. There was no trace of any electic toaster like element fitted anywhere in the heater ducting. Wonder if you can advise where the thermoplunger is fitted.Cheers,TK

[Dang 0]

tolsen....If you look under the dash on the passenger side just above the foam block at the heater core, you will see the electrical connections for the heater. (big thick set wires).The heater booster can provide 900 watts and consists of 4 elements that can come on in stages. The elements are three 210 watt units and one 140 watt unit (which somehow equals 900 watts..?).The switch turns the light on in the cluster, but that means nothing. It may or may not be on. A microswitch in the heater control always turns the light on.It's controlled by the EDT controller in the engine compartment. If you look in the engine compartment, you will find the same wires on the glow plug controller.There are only certain conditions it comes on:Outside temperature below 8c.Coolant temperature below 85c. (....like it would be above 85c in winter. )Slider all the way to heat (so the light is on).Fan control at least in position 1.Even if those conditions are met, how many elements come on is controlled by the EDT.All that said, I measured the voltage at -20c and found there was nothing there in the "heater boost" position, so I'm one of those people that questions if it works. I was measuring at idle, and some have said you have to be above idle for it to work. It should be quite obvious, consider that smaller hair dryers are 900 watts (granted, at 110 volts), yet people have trouble telling if it's even on. There are no fuses (oddly!), the wires go right to the glow plug controller in the engine compartment, which is controlled by the EDT computer. Now you know! Dang

[MightyMouseTech 0]

If you stare intently at the little double loop-de-loop dash light, it makes you feel MUCH warmer.

I like to think the lines represent "cooking bacon" This makes me feel warm all over.....mmmmm, bacon.......Although, like others, I have tried turning the booster off and on while driving (below freezing temps, highway speeds, only 1 or two bubbles of engine temp) and have never really felt any difference with it on or off. (shrug) Edited November 2, 2009 by MightyMouseTech

[Huronlad 186]

I have only noticed very marginal extra heat when using the booster. One of the reasons I added heated seat this year.

[tolsen 630]

Many thanks to Dang & al for the replies.

I'm surprised I could not see that large toaster of an electric element before.

Power output is not as great as previously reported. I measured it by reading both resistance, voltage and amps. There are 7 resistor elements in total. These are internally wired such that there are 3 double resistors and 1 single. Power output of each double resistor measured to 120 watts, single 70 watts. Measurements carried out using non stabilized 12 V supply and measuring both amps and voltage. Total output is around 450 watts.

Next thing is to rig up some test lamps so I can check if my electric heater swithes on or not.

Cheers,

TK

[tolsen 630]

great picture of the element.

but where is it located ?

It is fitted in the heater and fan assembly. Accessible from passenger footwell just above starter battery. See below photo and Dang's contribution for more details, post no 8.

Edited November 3, 2009 by tolsen

[PrairieBoy 1]

If you don't have the heated seats,you need to buy a heated seat pad. Available from Canadian Tire for about $10.00.It plugs into the cigarette lighter, and warms up your but nicely.This is a must have, if you don't have the heated seats.Also ,to get any meaningful heat out of the diesel smart ,in the city,on short trips in the winter, you MUST plug in the block heater ,as recomended in your owner's manual.You only need to plug it in for 2 hours, for temperatures from 0 degrees to minus 10 degrees.For temperatures below minus 10 degrees, smart recomends plugging it in for 3 hours. This is so the engine warms up faster, poluting less, and throwing heat faster.DO NOT IDLE THE ENGINE FOR MORE THAN A MINUTE,AFTER STARTING IT. Get in a drive it. It will not warm up if let idling, an idling wastes fuel.

[tolsen 630]

I'm still fiddling with my electric heater. Wired up a diode to each of the four resistor elements to get a visual indication of their operation. Did not want to strip insulation off the cables and figuring out how to remove the terminals from the plugs took a while. The terminals are 9.5 Ducon female made by Delphi.

There are leaf spring catches at both sides of the terminals. The release tools need to be about 0.8 mm thick.

Soldered the white cables to positive feed to each resistor element and one cable to negative.

Above photo shows one diode lit while engine is idling. Kindly note that this is not going to become a permanent feature of my Smart's interior. The diodes are arranged the same way as the resistor heater elements as seen from driver's seat. Had to use one red diode as I had no more than three green ones.

Heater operation.

Electric heater does not switch on before the controller is finished with the glow plugs. Heater does not seem to be affected by blower fan. Turned blower fan off and my diodes were still lit. Only no 2 element is on while engine is idling. (No 1 is the red diode indicating operation of the smallest heater element). More elements are switched on as engine revs higher and more electric power is available. All were on when I was making headway above 60 km/ hour. The elements turned off once engine temperature went up to the second blob indicating 60 degrees Celsius. Outside temperature during the initial tests was around 9 C.

I suppose it would be possible to fit a small flame effect heater in the Smart. You can use filament bulbs instead if diodes. Wire it such that the flame effect is only on while the electric heater is in operation. This might sell like hot cakes in Canada!.

An update following a test run with ambient temperature 6 C.

Engine speed need to be above 1500 RPM for all elements to be switched on. Other electrical consumers have also an effect. High beam on and heater no 1 is turned off. Same effect by turning on fog lights or blower to max. Turning on all available major consumers (high beam, blower to max and fog lights) while keeping engine constant at 1500 RPM resulted in element number 2 only remaining switched on.

Experiment with all available consumers switched on:

Engine RPM - Heater Element On

Idle - None

1100 - 1

1300 - 2

2100 - 1 & 2

2300 - 3 & 4

Looks like ECU or glow plug controller is constantly regulating power so max load on alternator is not exceeded. The heater stayed on until coolant temperature reached 80 this time which shows ambient temperature must have some effect as already explained by Dang.

Edited November 5, 2009 by tolsen

[MikeT 744]

Cool, thanks for testing this!Mine has always worked fine, like last winter when it was minus 17 degrees.

[Dang 0]

tolsen....Excellent report!It also explains why I found little/no effect at idle. I have a diesel heater now, so must admit I don't use the booster at all.Thanks! Dang

[tolsen 630]

I am working on another solution now to get more heat out of my Smart.Thinking of taking free waste heat from the exhaust. Some of the waste heat can be harnessed by fitting a jacket around the exhaust pipe, between exhaust manifold and exhaust muffler. The plan is to pipe the hot water from engine to heater matrix through the exhaust jacket first to give it a boost before the water goes to the heater matrix. The jacket heat exchanger will have to be permanently plumbed in. Should not be any problem getting rid of excess heat when heater is not required. Water is constantly circulated throught heater matrix even when slide lever is in cold position. The heated water goes back to the engine then passed to radiator and is cooled. My plan is to make the jacket out of 316L stainless steel plate. Form the plate and TIG weld (full penetration welds with back gas) to the exhaust pipe. I can always cut the stuff off if it does not work. Wonder if anyone has tried this before?

[bilgladstone 13]

Water jacket... wouldn't that adversely affect both the catalytic converter and the EGR systems? This is a 450 with cat' in the muffler can, right?We know that the cat' has to run at a certain minimum temperature in order to "light off" the catalyst. And too-cool EGT will mess up the combustion temp and EGR feedback.I'd be looking in some other direction, mate. My tuppence worth.As long as your battery and alternator are in good shape, why not just get a 12v cabin heater that plugs in the cigar lighter socket? Or even just plug-in heated seat cushions?Bil

Edited November 7, 2009 by bilgladstone

[tolsen 630]

Water jacket... wouldn't that adversely affect both the catalytic converter and the EGR systems? This is a 450 with cat' in the muffler can, right?We know that the cat' has to run at a certain minimum temperature in order to "light off" the catalyst. And too-cool EGT will mess up the combustion temp and EGR feedback.I'd be looking in some other direction, mate. My tuppence worth.Bil

A jacket heat exchanger on the exhaust certainly will not affect the EGR as EGR gas is tapped before the turbo. Also, more elaborate EGR systems cool the exhaust gas before piping the gas into the inlet manifold.I agree taking some of the excess exhaust heat may affect the CAT but I doubt if my jacket heat exchanger will be that effective. There is not much exposed pipe between exhaust flange and the muffler so I reckon I can only remove 10% of the exhaust heat at the most - max 3kW.Won't cause any problems whatsoever on my Cdi as EGR is and has been blanked off for years and there is no CAT. Fitting the optical illusion bits out of a flame effect electrical heater is another option but I know this solution won't make me any warmer.Cheers,TK Edited November 7, 2009 by tolsen

[Smarty-Pants Sandy 0]

As someone who regularly suffers -20 to -40 C through an Albertan winter, I'm am genuinely concerned about interior heat. I've only had my 2006 since the beginning of March so haven't felt the brunt of winter but have quickly realized the interior heat is going to be a big concern. I was hoping there would be a quick fix like plugging an interior heater into the lighter. Can anyone recommend a good one?And to Tolsen, there'll be one Dons' fan and one Canuck back in Aberdeen next week. Here's hoping for good weather for the game on Wednesday!

[PrairieBoy 1]

You have to plug in the block-heater for at least two hours. Three hours if the temperature falls BELOW minus 10 degrees. This will help the engine throw heat faster. Parking the car inside a garage, if you have one,helps also. Also get in and drive the thing, It will warm up faster this way too.Heated seats are a must, if you are driving this car in the winter.If you don't have heated seats,then buy a heated seat-pad. This plugs into the cigarette lighter's socket, and is the next best thing.I always covered the radiator in the winter,leaving a small hole in the center of the cardboard, in case the fan cuts in.

Edited April 29, 2010 by PrairieBoy

[Alex 21]

Switching the air control to recirculation helps a LOT. The little element can heat the already warmed air inside, rather than drawing outside air at ambient. Not so good for defogging though!

[strawboss 5]

As for me I've installed an oil pan heating pad with another for the gearbox that draws a total of 150 watts which I leave on all night below -10C & now with my new thermostat & restrictor plug, not to mention my 900W space heater on it's own timer...I'm almost looking forward to this winter,

[SMN 0]

I know there have been many topics on this, but this was the most recent pertinent one I could find -I haven't used the block heater yet, but with temps around -15-20 lately, I'm about to!I didn't know this until I was reading some forums but my car (2006) apparently has the outlet in the passenger footwell. I'm wondering if this draws power from the battery, or from the same (forgive my lack of technical terminology here) source as the block heater plug on the outside of the car? (i.e. if I plug something in to it, will it draw power from an external outlet that I have to plug the block heater cord into, or will it draw power from the battery)? I've seen mixed reports and I'm a bit confused.it's only December and I'm already having a lot of cold/ice issues, particularly with the interior windows being covered in ice. I was thinking of getting the pyroil interior heater from canadian tire that a lot of folks on here have mentioned using. I want to plug it into this plug that is located in the footwell, while simultaneously having the block heater plugged in. I'd probably only need it in the mornings.I don't want to drain the battery or basically draw too much power from anything. I guess I'm asking - is this a practical, safe solution?my idea was to get a timer so that the block heater comes on about 3-4 hours prior to my leaving for work in the morning and isn't on all night.help/feedback appreciated!

[Huronlad 186]

The outlet in the passenger foot well is powered from 120 Volts supplied to the Amphenol connector in the front bumper. If your car is equipped with a block heater a 1000W to 1200W space heater can safely run inside the car at the same time as the block heater.