G8/g20 Protests In Toronto

[Duck 16]

...What on Earth are people "protesting"?

I just read an article in which an 18 year old demonastrator complained that she was strangled by police, and was terrified.

1. At 18 years old, you haven't got a clue about anything

2. If you're scared of police then MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T PARTICIPATE IN RIOTS?

I just do not get this.

-Iain

[deezle 0]

3. If you think that more power should be given to 'the people' rather than to 'government', then perhaps it's not a great idea to destroy PUBLIC property and cause huge policing costs at PUBLIC expense. 4. I was actually under the impression that in a democracy, the elected government more or less represents the views of most of the people.

[Leadwing 565]

The only protest going on about the G20 that I agree with is the ridiculous cost of security. There is no need to spend 1.3 billion ( yes, billion, with a B ) for two separate summits on the same weekend within less than 2 hours by air between them, not to mention the cost of a fake lake when they have a perfectly good REAL lake less than 500 metres from the G20 site.

The fake lake and a huge TV screen to show the wonderful wildlife in the Haliburtons is not nessessary. All they needed to do is have both meetings in Huntsville, where the local merchants (for the most part) are loving it because of the increased business.

Quite the opposite in Toronto where businesses are either shut down or running on a skeleton staff due to mere mortals such as ourselves being disallowed from the area.

Send them all to Huntsville, where they can see real lakes, real bears, real beavers, real black and deer flies. Enjoy the experience live and in person. The security costs would be almost cut in half because only one "ugly fence" would be needed and the world leaders would get a real taste of the great Canadian outdoors with all it's perks, and no need to build a fake lake...there are lots of real ones up there.

[bilgladstone 13]

The cost of these G20 gatherings looks gigantic to us but it represents mere pocket change to the worldwide capitalist enterprise that is the G8, G20, WTO and IMF. Protesting a mere Billion dollar expenditure doesn't even elicit a passing disdainful smirk from these people - their concerns are many orders of magnitude above your tiny, local budgets.

Why protest the G20? There isn't enough time and space here to explain the distasteful macro-economics, but you can read for yourself in some of the links below.

Even an eighteen-year-old woman can understand the rotten nature of Corporate Globalisation and the UNdemocratic way these entities behave. Of course, she would have to be exposed to facts and perspectives other than those spoon-fed to us in the mainstream schools and media. Once understanding the nature of the G20, she may well choose to participate in a public protest - even consider it a moral obligation.

Protests are not riots. Yes, most protests are infiltrated by a minuscule number of agitators who are there to commit mayhem and destruction for their own reasons, and these are the ones the media loves us to hate. And it has been proven that in recent protests in Canada, RCMP undercover agents provocateurs have infiltrated peaceable demonstrations in order to provoke and incite and elevate the potential for, or actuality of violence. You can speculate on the motive and origin of that insidiousness as well as I.

Others below can explain more. They will naturally be leftist sources - the capitalist side is happy keeping you in the dark.

B

Capitalist economists, media magnates, business people and politicians tell us that we are moving towards a "globalised" world economy in which capital and investment can move around freely and the Third World can compete in a "free" international market.

In reality, all that is being globalised is poverty and the power of the huge corporations based in the advanced capitalist countries and international institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Bank and the World Trade Organisation (WTO).

SOURCE

http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2...regulation.html

http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/9664

http://freeliberal.com/archives/000449.php

[4DM 1]

3. If you think that more power should be given to 'the people' rather than to 'government', then perhaps it's not a great idea to destroy PUBLIC property and cause huge policing costs at PUBLIC expense. 4. I was actually under the impression that in a democracy, the elected government more or less represents the views of most of the people.

Not here in B.C. ... Campbell has made that very apparent recentlySome reading for those out of the loop..http://www.google.ca/#q=news+hst+bc&hl...bc42ee0b373f23b

[MikeT 744]

I think the plucking of his MLAs one by one in recall campaigns will be good political sport in the coming year and a half.....

[Duck 16]

Why protest the G20? There isn't enough time and space here to explain the distasteful macro-economics, but you can read for yourself in some of the links below.

Too much reading! I read a bit, but didn't understand any of it. It's like reading a University math textbook when you're in grade 9. I don't know anything about politics, really.

Others below can explain more. They will naturally be leftist sources - the capitalist side is happy keeping you in the dark.

I have no idea what that sentence means!I was hoping for a simple answer, but I guess there isn't one. I just see no connection between what the people have written on their signs and a meeting of a bunch of world leaders in one place. I like Leadwig's idea of having the meeting in some remote place.-Iain

[Coast Steve 1]

The little shit vandals aren't protesting anything except authority it seems.The instagators in the crowd need a nice rubber bullet or a good tazzering.

[Duck 16]

Have a look at these photos...

This makes my stomach churn. The police should go hardcore and arrest these people and give them life sentences. Disgusting.

-Iain

[MikeT 744]

Most of these same protesters will be full-blown capitalists two decades from now, which is hilarious (the duplicity).

[Eurometal 0]

The little shit vandals aren't protesting anything except authority it seems.The instagators in the crowd need a nice rubber bullet or a good tazzering.

Did you see the little jackass who was complaining about getting hit by a rubber bullet after getting a 5-minute warning from police to vacate the area...so they waited 4 minutes then started to slowly saunter off. Lesson: don't taunt the nice man with the gun.

[bilgladstone 13]

By reactions here, the the lazy, complicit media have done their usual crap job and the nihilist shit-disturbers have grabbed the publicity once again.Genuine protest has been blotted out by sensationalist actions of the motley minority. No wonder nobody knows what the hell the real protesters are there for - their voice is never heard, their purpose is never published in the mainstream press. And if it ever were, it wouldn't sell newspapers. Too much reading, learning and thinking involved. Fire and blood - that's what sells.

[Masher1 0]

You don't get a damn thing done Screaming like Babies in the street. Money talks. Everyone has theirs. Everyone SHOULD use it like it's your only source of power. Shills and spooks INCITING moronic behavior is simply a case of history repeating it's self. The tidal wave of stupidity is reaching ever higher heights. I say don't even think of falling into the trap the users have set for you to fall into. See through the lies of the MSM. Look behind the wizards curtain and see all his fakery for just what it is. LIES. Your ignorance is the bankers profit zone. Far too many are splashing around in the bankers sweet spot of thefts. Days are coming. Very rich men have a Plan to screw you good if you let them. Money is the key. Understanding EXACTLY what money is and who is using it against you is your only hope through their minefields. Barter is not so bad. Good will works. There is many ways to cut the bank man off from his much loved trough. Do it. Don't waste your time in childish rants on the street. We have to be far more knowledgeable about the mess they have us all in today.

[Gordon 0]

By reactions here, the the lazy, complicit media have done their usual crap job and the nihilist shit-disturbers have grabbed the publicity once again.Genuine protest has been blotted out by sensationalist actions of the motley minority. No wonder nobody knows what the hell the real protesters are there for - their voice is never heard, their purpose is never published in the mainstream press. And if it ever were, it wouldn't sell newspapers. Too much reading, learning and thinking involved. Fire and blood - that's what sells.

QFT. G20 protests are a mixed grill. I'm sure a preponderance of protestors are sincere both in getting their point across and not jeopardizing public safety. Alas, thrown into the mix are those so convinced of their righteousness, they believe they have the right to destroy property and risk others' safety. If they can help to provoke violent response from law enforcement, so much the better.Then, of course, there are those who don't actually give a fiddler's fart about G20 but are spoiling for a fight.And naturally, the media points cameras at burning police cars or people smashing windows, not the peaceful protesters. Worse still, media almost never report on what the protestors have to say, unless they're inarticulate wing-nuts. Yesterday the police disarmed some kid from Saskatoon of his nail guns and Kevlar -- that's who the reporters to. He was completely vague about why he was there.The whole setup fuels the frustration of protestors who are trying to do the right thing and validates negative stigma that some onlookers have towards protest.

[Speedie 4]

Duck - it is a very complex topic but what has been happening (an bear with me those that are more informed - I am trying to keep it simple) is the folks with the money (G8 - G20) have been dictating policy and standard of living decisions to those countries that are desperately in need. They do it under the guise of loans, aid and investments but in a larger sense it is about control of a large amount of the world's resources, physical and human. The Global Corporations leverage a lot of this to their financial gain including offshoring of production to areas where there are not rules on how you treat employees, environment, and the standard of living is not very good. They do this by influencing the politicians in those countries (attendees) to change rules etc. to suit the big global corporations.This includes the growing of cash crops instead of food crops to pay off loans for debt incurred by corrupt leaders, hence people go hungry (a few examples - Cotton in Egypt instead of wheat which also depletes the soil, Coffee in Central America instead of food crops). Also there is the whole issue of arms sales from the "have got nations" and creation of issues in the less than stable countries (typically hungry people are pretty prone to instability) so they buy those weapons. From our Canadian Consumer persepective - they can control what you have available for you to buy/do business with (pretty easy to put Mom and Pop locals out of business - for example - Starbucks here in Victoria was buying up leases on properties they never intended on putting a business in, including big offers to the landlord when ones came up for existing coffee places, by doing this they starved the other businesses of locations that they could run a decent business out of - after a couple of years they would not be able to survive - and Starbucks eliminates the competition). It basically comes down to greed, some types are not happy unless they have it all (Have a look a the news articles around the Magna corporation right now - oh wait - gee - wasn't his daughter in the running for leader of the Harperites?).Politically the countries with clout (money) have a lot of control over those that don't - ever wonder why political contributions are tax deductable and why they introduced rules that you had to have so much cash on hand in order to be a federal political party and a candidate (and the deposit is only redeemable if you get 15% of the vote). Basically you get to elect the candidate chosen by the political parties - that are backed by the big bucks. So politically, if you have the funds you can typically heavily sway the outcome of an election, leadership, or if in final analysis you don't like the way things turned out fund a revolution.From the protest side of things as rotten as some of the actions of the IMF and G8/G20 are it doesn't justify violence, however here too you have to take a cynical point of view to a degree, most of the media is either government controlled (CBC) or corporately controlled (Black et al) - there is very little independant media left - hence Bil's suggestion that his sources are somewhat left leaning. If you have the $ you can get better exposure of the truth as you want people to percieve it, through more media coverage, access to publicty outfits, and heck just the money to put ads on TV. You should also be aware that the media can influence the story simply by presenting one angle or another - omitting one detail or another can make a big difference and unfortunately we are not given the opportunity to get the "News" in full context - most of it is in "sound bites" and for most dramatic aspects - hence why you see very little on an issue after about 2 weeks. This comes into play when they can influence how you percieve things which leaves the media as more of a propaganda machine than an unbias source (I often go to unaligned country news sources when I want to get a full perspective on international events).I may sound a tad cynical but there is so much that goes on that unless it makes it to the media - it never happened. And more so than ever the golden rule applies these days - who ever has the gold makes the rules!Cheers,Cameron

[4DM 1]

Anyone else notice that the same phone number were on a few different peoples arms?

Some more light reading..

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/technolo...its/09mobb.html

[Speedie 4]

Only problem with those devices is cell phone frequencies are easily blocked, tapped into or turned off - the RCMP already issued statements that they would be doing that if they felt the need - and the Telco's have to oblige - and if they don't - not a biggie - a couple of van based units can knock out a cell transmitter at ease. Laughably - the US had big problems with Iraq in the first Gulf War and the fact the that Iraq used POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) as it was all they could afford - with the wires buried in the desert it made it very hard to knock out communications or to tap into them and very easy to fix (twist the wires back together). In another incident a large printer company with a short name had a request to buy printers from the Iraq military - normally these would be restricted items so the printer company approached the State Dept. - they provided the printer company with a special chip and the sale went ahead - nothing like a homing device in every printer the enemy is using.....So lesson here - technology is not always your friend.Cheers,Cameron

[Dang 0]

My understanding of the protester's issue has always been pretty much as Speedie said it.Since I spend half my life in Toronto, and work downtown, I ran into a few protesters and thought I would try to learn over Thursday and Friday. What I learned is one depiction in the media seems to be have some truth. (and a disclaimer, I work for a media company, though in engineering, not news).A lot of protester types I talked to didn't really know what they were protesting about. There was a vague concept of "trying to stop big government", but with a follow up question of "trying to stop big government from doing what?", or "how would you change it", few I talked to was really sure, sort of some concept of wealthy fat cats. It was sort of depressing really. The exception and most informed seemed to be university students from the U of T (good for them!)When I asked what they thought of Harper's "maternal health initiative", again, most had no idea what it was, or had even really heard of it (and I actually don't have enough knowledge to know if it's good or not). One of the most depressing was a group of 20 somethings that thought we should focus on all the children dying in other countries instead of focusing on ourselves. When I explained that's actually what the proposal was and focused on women in developing countries, they said Canada is not doing enough and should be doing more. When I said actually Canada is probably going to spend the most of any G8 country on it, even the U.S. (this was before final numbers were announced), they just said "Oh". Again, the students seemed to be the most informed, or at least have intelligent opinions on the issues. I got out of there Friday night before the real violence started. I'm sure there are a lot of honest people protesting that have valid points, but there is also a lot of people that I think just believe they are going to Woodstock or something, and an even smaller set that just want to do harm for the "fun of it". It's too bad, because the logical, peaceful ones get drowned out, and are probably outnumbered by the party seekers.My two cents.....Cheers! Dang

[Dang 0]

Only problem with those devices is cell phone frequencies are easily blocked, tapped into or turned off - the RCMP already issued statements that they would be doing that if they felt the need - and the Telco's have to oblige - and if they don't - not a biggie - a couple of van based units can knock out a cell transmitter at ease.

Yeah, saw one of those downtown. Some RF based device on a trailer with a huge generator running it, and massive feed line cables. Don't know what it was (and decided against going and asking the 2000 police guarding it), but it was either some masssive communication device, or a massive device to prevent communications, depending on your view. Cheers! Dang

[VRsyncro 0]

Have a look at these photos...This makes my stomach churn. The police should go hardcore and arrest these people and give them life sentences. Disgusting.-Iain

Looks like a lot of middle class kids who were way too spoiled growing up!

[bilgladstone 13]

The poor are busy feeding the family and keeping a roof over their heads. The wealthy support the G20. The only ones left with the time, the education, and the will to protest are the (shrinking) middle class. No surprise there.Again: it is to the advantage of the Corporatists and the slavish media that true civil protest should be conflated with riot. It plays into this tactical portrayal, that people should tut-tut the rock-throwers and the dilettantes and not bother to penetrate the issue any deeper. It is also to their delight that the public's attention span has been reduced to momentary, thrilling visuals and brief, uniformative sound bites. Public education and the power of critical thinking are their enemies.B

[ianjay 6]

What bothers me is that it was no problem to find the money for whatever the protective services were required for the summits - and that the money flowed fast and freely.OTOH, funding announcements to support public transit, public health care and social services make great 6 o'clock news items, but often target far-off dates and then are never fulfilled.They should have taken the largely abandoned Downsview military base (which is so close the the airport), built whatever fences they wanted, prisons to hold the bad guys, etc. At least then the money wouldn't have been wasted removing trees, garbage cans, signs and any chance of trying to use our city normally.The rioters were bad, suspension of our freedoms far worse and most troubling - in all, a complete waste of time and money. Despite throwing all that dough to get ready and keep things monitored, the police let things happen on Saturday, feigned surprise, and then used their temporary powers abusively.

[dennisc72 0]

You don't get a damn thing done Screaming like Babies in the street. Money talks. Everyone has theirs. Everyone SHOULD use it like it's your only source of power. Shills and spooks INCITING moronic behavior is simply a case of history repeating it's self. The tidal wave of stupidity is reaching ever higher heights. I say don't even think of falling into the trap the users have set for you to fall into. See through the lies of the MSM. Look behind the wizards curtain and see all his fakery for just what it is. LIES. Your ignorance is the bankers profit zone. Far too many are splashing around in the bankers sweet spot of thefts. Days are coming. Very rich men have a Plan to screw you good if you let them. Money is the key. Understanding EXACTLY what money is and who is using it against you is your only hope through their minefields. Barter is not so bad. Good will works. There is many ways to cut the bank man off from his much loved trough. Do it. Don't waste your time in childish rants on the street. We have to be far more knowledgeable about the mess they have us all in today.

Problem is most poor people are poor for a reason - namely because they are stupid! They can't realize that a lot of good can come from these things, but only if the world leaders actually show up, and enjoy themselves while they are there. I heard it compared to a family reunion or a meeting of franchisees. It is necessary to make them want to come, and then keep them in good moods while they are there. They won't agree to anything good if they hate every minute that they are there! Maybe the artificial lake was a bit much but a bit much is better than too little.Of course, most of the $$$ was spend on protecting these guys from all these protesters, who either can't understand what is going on or only want to make trouble, so they only have themselves to blame. I do agree that the police were far to brutal to those who were exercising their legal right to protest, and even those who just came to see what is going on, and I see a huge lawsuit in the near future.

[bilgladstone 13]

Problem is most poor people are poor for a reason - namely because they are stupid!

I cannot adequately (or politely) express how absolutely despicable this statement is. <further comment deleted as wasted electrons>

[Leadwing 565]

Lesson: don't taunt the nice man with the gun.

"Nice man" and "with the gun"... They are in the same sentence, but they don't belong together. I speak from personal experience with the so-called 'nice man'. A lot of them aren't so nice. One woman, who was part of the peaceful portion of the protest, got arrested on saturday and wasn't released for 22 hours. Three small styrofoam cups of water and a tiny sandwich was all she was given in those 22 hours. Her hands were secured behind her for the entire time. When she needed to make a 'nature trip' she was pointed to a portable toilet with no door. There was no TP and it was filthy. The holding cell was an over-grown hampster cage (no roof or walls, just heavy wire). Side note: the guards were all male.