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bilgladstone

Engine sounds: videos

54 posts in this topic

Posted (edited) · Report post

Over the last 6-9 months, I have been getting more and more (what I think is) top-end noise. A distinct tin-can rattle, especially under load. I've used a mechanic's stethoscope to try and isolate the area of the engine that the sound is coming from - rocker cover near 1,2 or 3 cylinder, intake manifold, upper- or lower timing chain cover - and (maybe it's my hearing) cannot pin it down.

So yesterday I decided to try recording a brief trip along a typical route, driving with the engine cover removed and windows up, in order to offer the sounds to you in hopes that the various noises may strike a familiar chord with someone who has better ears than I, and who could offer any thoughts as to what we are hearing.

We start with the engine cold in the morning and end 10 minutes later with Cwt at 70C. It's an easy, town-speed drive, mostly at 60Km/h. Mostly flat-ish roadway, with a couple of small hills where the sound I am concerned about is more evident.

The engine sounds really loud in the cabin! To be expected I suppose... for comparison, I have taken a second, 15 second clip at idle, made about 2 minutes after the first drive, once I put the engine cover back on, so you can hear the normal cabin volume.

So please have a listen (the picture pretty much sucks) and see what you think.

Posted Image

Posted Image

And while we're at it, here is a 30-second vid I took last week of the warmed-up engine at idle.

Posted Image

Please let me know your thoughts.

TIA,

Bil :senile:

Edited by bilgladstone

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Good vid Bil,If I were to take a shot at guessing, I would say it sounds like a loose timing chain rattle, but not a belt.If it were a gas engine I would have said the valve clearance was too much or the chain needed tension.Funny how it comes and goes though and almost seems like a loose part inside like the chain tensioner spring or plunger ?Sorry Bil, I'm no expert or even close. Good luck.

Edited by Coast Steve

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Sound to me like lifters are getting weak. As the engine warms up, lifter sounds diminish and come back as the oil thins.I also hear the chain "whirr" sound from the under shot. Not as loud as mine at 135k but may be worth the time to check. I am going to replace both chains and the oil pump (about $300 in parts).Robert

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Don't wait, take it in for a repair Bil. The alternative is not pretty.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I've done some more looking around for ideas on this and taking into consideration the experience of others and other opinions, I believe I may have the same problem described here in dieselkiki's thread. Seems to me that, like his, the lower chain (or its cog) has failed. Probably got little bits of teeth rattling around down there, and the oil is not circulating properly up to the rods and rockers.

This foreshadows the immanent death of my smart, as I cannot afford the $1-2,000 it will cost to repair the problem.

Edited by bilgladstone

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If it's that bad Bil, park it until we can get a work group together to do the job ourselves. You buy the parts and we'll get some guys together to do the work.....TPM estimated a chain replacement cost of $1000, labour included.

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Wow, Mike. That's an extremely generous offer!Bil : speechless :

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I've asked for costs of the parts that M. Dieselkiki listed, both from the Kelowna dealership and from FastEddy.

Given that I cannot simply park the car as it is my only transportation (no bus out here, and taxi into town and back is almost $50!), what I can do is limit travel to about 75km per week until I can sell my trailer and move into town.

http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u269/bi...mview=slideshow

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So if I'm not getting an oil pressure idiot light, that means I'm still getting some circulation, is that right?

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Can oil pressure be monitored through the scan gauge?I hope your diagnosis is correct before you order all the parts Bil, It would suck if that wasn't the problem.I'm only sayin this as you indicate funds are limited.Can it be diagnosed specifically without ripping the engine all apart??

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No, ScanGauge doesn't have access to that feed. Wish it did!

I may have to pay for MB to do a proper diagnostic, which will mean a few hours and taking chain cover and rocker cover off. I'd estimate $2-300 just for the diagnosis. And once that stuff is all opened up anyway, and I'm into it for that much ca$h, I suppose I might as well just get them to do the rest of the work while it's on the hoist.

So the plan as of today - subject to change, as always - is to go back to plugging in the pan heater to pre-warm the oil, gently drive the minimum amount necessary, and hope to sell the trailer (my sole remaining asset other than the smart) so I can fully fund the professional diagnosis and repairs.

B :senile:

Go Aretha! http://youtu.be/8Lx52sBLtKI

Edited by smart142

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Can it be diagnosed specifically without ripping the engine all apart??

Possibly an endoscope could be threaded down to get a visual. Ask Deiselkiki, he may know if there is room.Also after a quick peek at mine it just possibly may be feasible to remove the fender, wheel and fuel tank and access the end of the engine that way, leaving the engine in the car. Don't know if that would be any easier, though. Edited by Alex

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I think the engine can be left in the car but just lowering like with the 4 long service bolts?I have sent this question to dieselkiki.

Edited by smart142

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wow so quiet till it gets warmed up an put it under load. sounds like some 1 has put marbles in the motor. but i would say the lifters are losing tension once the oil warms up. from the video to me it sounds like engine knock or pinging. weak lifters or springs will throw the valve timing out an being diesel it dont need much.gl i hope its not a costly repair.

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Knocking (pinging, detonation, same thing) doesn't apply to diesels. There is no fuel to prematurely ignite until the fuel is injected. Gas engines having a fuel/air mixture already in the cylinder before the spark comes can detonate, diesels can't. No fuel, just air before the injectors go to work.I'm not saying there is nothing wrong, but it's not knocking/pinging/detonation.Hard to say from the poor sound quality. Hope it is just nerves and nothing serious. Any other smarties in Kelowna to do a side-by-side comparison with?

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wow so quiet till it gets warmed up an put it under load. sounds like some 1 has put marbles in the motor. but i would say the lifters are losing tension once the oil warms up. from the video to me it sounds like engine knock or pinging. weak lifters or springs will throw the valve timing out an being diesel it dont need much.gl i hope its not a costly repair.

If oil pressure is low, even though still over the warning light threshold, maybe that makes the lifters lazy? I don't know.My fear is that, as well as oil pump chain & sprockets, and timing chain & sprockets, tensioners and guides, that it will also need lifters, springs, rockers, whatever... I confess to a bad case of nerves over this, Alex. My little car is such an important part of my life!I'll have to see if my best contact is at the dealership this week and see what kind of deal I can make on a diagnostic inspection. Would they usually apply the cost of an inspection against the subsequent repair job, or...?

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Bil,It simply can't be that that many mechanical parts requiring replacing. You've maintained your "wee smartie" betterthan most and that will show after MB diagnostics are completed ...Rick

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The rocker fingers are mounted on needle bearings, apparently to reduce friction in medium RPM ranges.....I guess these "complicated" units, to quote the technical documentation, can be the source of the strange rocker gear failures we have seen in some cars.Bil I couldn't really tell what the noise was, the audio on the camera and my computer combined to make it not clear, but I figured there was an issue because if the sound you are hearing is different than it once was, well you have something going on.I don't know what the trigger point for the oil pressure switch is, but it is probable that if the oil light does not go on, the oil pump is still working well enough, it's probably set at .8 bar or so.

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Knocking (pinging, detonation, same thing) doesn't apply to diesels. There is no fuel to prematurely ignite until the fuel is injected. Gas engines having a fuel/air mixture already in the cylinder before the spark comes can detonate, diesels can't. No fuel, just air before the injectors go to work.I'm not saying there is nothing wrong, but it's not knocking/pinging/detonation.Hard to say from the poor sound quality. Hope it is just nerves and nothing serious. Any other smarties in Kelowna to do a side-by-side comparison with?

This is wrong a diesel is more timing sentive then a gas engine. It is knock that does the firing of the fuel under compression. Listen to a big rig when its cold start an it rattles an shakes till cyl temps come up on a cold start.

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What I hear in that first video is a bad turbo or leaking intercooler, and maybe noisy lifters when your first starting out. Otherwise it seems pretty normal for a car with the engine lid removed (yes, driven without them listening for problems). Knowing that they have a history of lifter failure I would check that out first, they are not any more expensive then other cars on the road and only a few vs 40 on some modern v8s. Then look for a worn intercooler or leaking pipe/seal in the plumbing, if not that the turbo is worn and creating noise. I personally didn't hear chain noise in the few minutes I watched (limited internet use!) but again these are just arm chair diagnostics right!Greg

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Bill, I listened to your audio file and read your description. We also had a very pronounced tin can rattle on our 05 smart when it had about 115,000 km on it about a year ago. Ours turned out to be a loose ceramic brick (catalytic converter?) inside the muffler. So before you do anything that costs a lot of money, I suggest that you remove the muffler and give it a good shake to see if there is anything loose inside. If this turns out to be the problem I can give you a couple of tips as to how to fix it for free.

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Thanks, Ed. I have a custom-built exhaust and know that it is not a loose converter.

Got replies back on my parts list enquiries today. Not that I ready to buy, but...

Do you know that MB wants $480 for a set of four long bolts used for temporarily lowering the engine?!!! :yikes:

B :senile:

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Kelowna MB/smart is 24% more expensive on the same parts list than Eddy. Typical. Is it any wonder I never friggin' go there?Once I've put together some money, I may have to take a nice slow drive to Richmond ;)

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Do you know that MB wants $480 for a set of four long bolts used for temporarily lowering the engine?!!! :yikes:

I got the 4 lowering bolts for about $80. Ask them to check again....smart # 450 589 00 62 00....x1 (because all 4 come with this #)

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