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Alex

Upcoming Focus Group On The Smart.

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So it seems that as part of deciding the future of the smart in North America, Mercedes has engaged a PR company to survey owners and arrange a focus group meeting. I guess I met their criteria based on my responses to the survey, so I was invited to join the group. Meeting is on July 30. I think it appropriate to ask the CsC members for any input I should bring up. I intend to specifically mention this little project I am starting here, Mercedes could hardly ask for a more enthusiastic and knowledgeable group than the members here, after all!My main points will be:1: Engine choices. Bring the diesel back! For anyone doing high mileage, either light business/delivery like me or a long commute, the phenomenal economy of the CDI really helps overcome the shortcomings of the car. To my mind, there should be the CDI for the high mileage drivers, the electric for the purely short trip city cars, and the Brabus turbo for the "toy" cars. Don't need the current engine at all, without the mileage of the CDI, nor the green-ness of the ED, or the fun of 120 HP from the hopped up Brabus.2: Harden the car a bit against the hideous conditions of a Canadian winter. Better electrical connections would be the main focus there. Something as simple as a good application of a thick lubricating anti-oxidant spray-on coating would really help the the seals to seal and the contacts to resist damage when the seals still leak.3: This is a difficult one, but the smart really doesn't fit well with the North American style of Mercedes dealerships, so focused on an elite luxury image. In Europe there are many more practical small Mercedes, and commercial vehicles as well. Could the smart, the Sprinter van, and any other practical vehicles that may be offered here suit a separate division? Or a much smaller group of dual-focus dealerships? This is indeed a difficult one, you see.4: Marketing: Focus strongly on promoting the smart as a second car. We at CsC already know this, but the general public may not. The smart would suit very few people as an only car, but a great many families would love it as a second or third car. People tend to overlook the fact that 90% of their driving could be done in a smart, instead obsessing on the 10% which can't. So promote it as a second car, just the one that you choose to drive whenever possible because it's just so darn much fun! "Aww Honey, do I HAVE to drive that wallowing SUV today?""Yes, you know you have to pick up the kids after work, I have that appointment. Now stop complaining and give me the keys, I get the smart today!"That's all I have for now. Thoughts?

Edited by Alex

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My thought is that you nailed it on the fortwo. BRABUS Turbo 112 HP, ED and cdi. It's a no-brainer.They should have another roadster......that doesn't leak. This niche is SUPER-important to brand image, and they (were) a total riot to drive.A forfour based on the fortwo will be a nice addition.

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+1 to a new roadster. I would be just as happy with an engine similar to the Nissan HR12DDR, as to having a diesel option. Sub 4.0 lhk once again would be very nice. Improving wiring and wiring connections would also be a huge plus, I will happily pay a few more dollars for tinned wire over the pure copper and properly sealed connectors. Get rid of the PRND shifter.Design the instrument cluster so that 6'+ tall people can see the whole speedometer when driving.

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1. CDI maual transmission2. Make them tougher.We have two cabs, 144k on one 138k on the 2nd. One new head, both had new springs. one new SAM, one roof repair coming up, $500 plus to diagnose another $1000+ when the back ordered part comes in. One $1000 repair for a water leak for which we have been complaing since 2007 which was never repaired until two monts ago. We paid for diagnoses (the $1000), Mercedes picked up the repair. This should have been done right the first time. This is the second time that the floor has been repainted. We have at least 5 work orders documenting the complaint.We've saved money on fuel only to spend it on repairs. I've had two 123 and two 124 300d, Topaz diesel and two Jetta diesels. I hadn't spent as much on repairs on all of these as I've spent on these two should be anchors.I disagree with the idea that the CDI should be used as an urban runabout. For the diesels to run right they should be run hot and for a long time. Short runs kill them.These cars cost around $25k new. No other $25 000 car has depreciated as much.

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Bring back the CDIDesign a "proper" "normal" standard transmission. Those two second thinking pauses are DANGEROUS!

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My main points will be:3: This is a difficult one, but the smart really doesn't fit well with the North American style of Mercedes dealerships, so focused on an elite luxury image. In Europe there are many more practical small Mercedes, and commercial vehicles as well. Could the smart, the Sprinter van, and any other practical vehicles that may be offered here suit a separate division? Or a much smaller group of dual-focus dealerships? This is indeed a difficult one, you see.Thoughts?

Take it away from the snotty MB dealers. They don't want it anyway. Give it to Dodge. They've got Sprinters. But then, so does Freightliner...

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Daimler have nothing to do with Chrysler any longer so that's notgoing to happen. As far as the CDI goes, I read a paper on the futuresmarts and the diesel isn't part of their plans. Seems it's too costly to engineer for future emission standards...

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But, and this is where the link with Renault comes in, Renault has some fine small displacement diesels which would be theoretically suitable for the new fortwo (and Twingo). Meeting US emission standards would be a chore but then again, everyone else has to do it. Diesels will be old hat in a year or two, even over here in N America. I have no doubt that the days of the OM660 are over once the 451 is killed off though. By then it'll be 15 years old.

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Take it away from the snotty MB dealers. They don't want it anyway. Give it to Dodge. They've got Sprinters. But then, so does Freightliner...

And the A/C in freightliners works

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We even got a call. I explained that the reason we ditched our car was directly related to poor service. It was the arrogance that they were right and we were wrong. We played the game, but Mercedes dealers don't like the cars. My suggestion would be to hive the smart operation away from the regular stream Mercedes products and service.

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Hi, at least they asked, I was going to buy two, but only bought one, because no diesels For 2nd vehicle, ended up buying the VW diesel Golf with 6 speed manual, love itIf the smart became available with diesel & manual transwould replace both faster than a NY secondthe smart is perfect size for my needsI just want, a diesel, with a manual transmissionlike the rest of the more enlightened world hasthank youCM

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I would add the cheap looking dash should be replaced by something nicer looking. Fiat 500 has a funky and good looking dash.My 2009 Brabus has an awful sound system. I replaced the door speakers and turfed the crummy tweeters but it still is very flat sounding. Car doesn't need great system but it shouldn't be this bad and cheap sounding.I rented a Fiat 500 for 2 weeks and found it to be a hugely higher quality car than the smart car - better dash, better sound deadening, better ride, better transmission, better sound system. The smart car should not be beaten in all these categories.On a positive note, they should add to their marketting a demonstration of just how much stuff fits in a smart car. My wife and I loaded a Costco cart full and got it all into the smart car behind the seats, nothing up front and nothing above the beltline of the rear window. Capacity is not like a large car but it is very acceptable.

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I was disappointed with the change to a gas engine....the only reason I bought my 450 was the Diesel fuel economy, but a Roadster in Canada would be awesome.... only if it didn't leak (& was a cdi)

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Marketing marketing marketing!The last time I saw defeat snatched from the jaws of victory in this manner was when Commodore failed to properly market their Amiga PC in the mid 1980's. MB seems to be making this same mistake with the smart in North America. I can't remember the last time I saw an advert for a smart, let alone any kind of a campaign with a consistent message. I see Hyundai and Kia using the word "smart" in their adverts, Toyota is selling the IQ and it appears to be moving off the local dealership lot. Smart? It sits, languishing in the showrooms and out of doors. Dealers don't seem to want to sell it, MB Canada (North America?) don't seem to realize they have a potential winner that could lead to increased sales of their upscale cars in the future.Improve customer service experience. I have had my smart since May 2005. In that time it has returned from an oil-change with the interrior in disarray and (worst of all) the oil filler cap not tightened (resulting in large lubricant loss and a really messy engine bay). This last one was when the car was relatively new and it might be the root cause of my problems today.... but too much time has passed. I have also seen them incorrectly re-attach underbody panels, leave off screws and forget to tighten wheel nuts. It is almost as if they give smarts to the part-time school-kid working in the shop.Look at your market and THINK!There are a couple of show-stoppers when it comes to making a purchase decision...#1. Safety concerns. Lack of marketing by MB is a problem here. Even today, 7 years after introduction, people tell me they like my smart but would be afraid to drive one on the highway. The public thinks they are "unsafe". the competition doesn't even have to work to instill Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, MB is doing it all for them.#2. Hi test fuel only. This really drives up the operating costs. A less finicky engine is required.. Toyota can do it, I'm sure MB can too.#3. Service available only at MB dealerships who (with the exception of some outstanding corporate stores) have an arrogant attitude and seem to do really crappy work for big money. When it comes to service a friend of mine was slowly making his way home home one evening during a snow storm and he (quite slowly) went into the ditch. There was no one in the passengers seat but the airbag fired off anyway ($2500.00). We had the car pulled out, there was no damage (except for the airbag) and he drove home. A few months later while on wet roads he braked hard but banged into the back of another vehicle. Yes it was his fault (he rear ended someone) but the damage to the smart was minimal.. just a cracked front bumper cover, and the damage to the other vehicle was nill. He was going to make a claim to have the front bumper cover replaced, but the insurance company wanted to also replace the passengers seat side-airbag and doing so would have written off the car!!! This is the kind of thing that can just ruin your whole day. No one thinks that If all of the airbags were to go off in a relatively smart (without getting into an accident), that the cost to replace those airbags could be equal to the value of the vehicle. Things like that are VERY scary. For me personally it HAS to have a diesel. No diesel? No purchase. I am not going to buy a gasoline powered fortwo that gets the same fuel economy as a Yaris with the added requirement of hi test fuel. When it comes to the "new" smart it has ergonomic problems that the 450 didn't. It also has some improvements that the 450 needed, so it's a trade off. If it was available in diesel I could be tempted into a new smart... as it is I will tear-down and refurbish my 2005 fortwo.

Edited by sbungay

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Marketing marketing marketing!…Improve customer service experience. …#2. Hi test fuel only. This really drives up the operating costs. A less finicky engine is required.. Toyota can do it, I'm sure MB can too.…#3. Service available only at MB dealerships who (with the exception of some outstanding corporate stores) have an arrogant attitude and seem to do really crappy work for big money....

Why spend marketing dollars to sell a few thousand cars a year??? It is not as if by spending millions of dollars on advertising smart Canada would sell that many more cars to offset the advertising dollars.The best way to improve customer service is to give feedback good and bad to smart on how they are doing. Did you discuss your bad experiences with smart Canada?M-B apparently can not design and build small fuel efficient engines, that is why Renault is doing it for them. As for operating costs of the 450 cdi versus the 451 1L I expect them to be a wash. The 451 is already several thousand dollars less to buy and has longer service intervals and heat in the winter. The 451 also has no turbo or intercooler to go bad. I’ve spent nearly as much in repairs on my cdi as it cost to buy 4 years ago. Time will tell how the 451 will fare.There are other service options available in most areas to M-B.

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Good responses all, keep them coming! This is a genuine opportunity to have your opinions really listened to at the highest level of Mercedes. Shortly before the actual meeting (July 30, so a couple of days previous) I will summarize all the thoughts given here and post in this thread for review by all, revise if needed then print off for the meeting.

There are other service options available in most areas to M-B.

That is not a valid point for the purpose of this thread. MB wants to know how to fix the problems with the car, the marketing and MB service, not how people can avoid it. Independent service options are valuable in most threads here at CsC, but not this one. Rest of your points are valid and appreciated, don't get me wrong.

When it comes to the "new" smart it has ergonomic problems that the 450 didn't. It also has some improvements that the 450 needed, so it's a trade off.

Details? I agree in principle, but what in specific do you like and dislike?

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The angle of the instrument cluster in the 451 is an issue for taller individuals. I can only see about the bottom half when driving.

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Why spend marketing dollars to sell a few thousand cars a year??? It is not as if by spending millions of dollars on advertising smart Canada would sell that many more cars to offset the advertising dollars.

Because if you do not keep your name in front of your potential customer and stay on-message your sales will suffer and you will end up doing PR studies to determine the fate of your product.

The best way to improve customer service is to give feedback good and bad to smart on how they are doing. Did you discuss your bad experiences with smart Canada?

Yes. It fell on deaf ears. Never heard back from them, didn't really expect to. They do seem intent on trying to sell me a new one though.

M-B apparently can not design and build small fuel efficient engines, that is why Renault is doing it for them.

You can't seriously expect people to believe that MB does not have the engineering chops to build small fuel-effieicnt cars. Of course they do! Although they appear to think it beneath them.

As for operating costs of the 450 cdi versus the 451 1L I expect them to be a wash. The 451 is already several thousand dollars less to buy and has longer service intervals and heat in the winter. The 451 also has no turbo or intercooler to go bad. I’ve spent nearly as much in repairs on my cdi as it cost to buy 4 years ago. Time will tell how the 451 will fare.

I agree with you... to a point, but none of the issues below are because the engine uses compression for ignition of its fuel. A fair bit has been spent on maintenance. Here's a short laundry list;An EGR problem. The problem "went away" on it's own after the last B service. (Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm")Waste-gate actuator problem. This problem also "went away" after last B service. I was told that just the waste gate could not be ordered and replaced, the entire turbo assembly ($2,700.00) needed to be purchased. This is the kind of thing that, should people be made aware, would definitely turn off potential customers.Problem with the intercooler fan becoming detatched from the shaft of its motor, which is (IMHO) a quality control/engineering issue as the motor should fail before the fan comes off the shaft.Broken front struts. It was hard to keep my jaw from hitting the floor when the service advisor (or whatever they call themselves) asked me where I usually drove the car, and in response to my "around town and on the highway" answer; nodded sagely and said something to the effect of "Well there's your problem then". Uh huh, I actually drive the car. It ain't a Panterra or a Countach and this is not 1973. It might be Swatch Mercedes "Art", but it is FUNCTIONAL art. Wheel alignment issues. They just can't seem to get this right and I go through tires quite quickly (yes I keep them properly inflated).The service guys also seem to LOVE telling me that I need new brakes. The last time they told me this there was barely 10,000 Km on the ODO since I had them done last (and I was the one who did them). Top Tip. There is not enough material on the brake rotors to turn them, but they can have the rust sand-blasted off of them. I took a chipping hammer (for cleaning up weld slag) to the heavy scale, and used a workbench sand blasting unit to thoroughly clean each rotor. I then painted the areas that were heavily corroded with high-heat enamel. The rotors have remained rust-free over the winter, the pads have little wear on them and are nowhere near the 3mm that the "mechanic" said they were at.So yeah, I have spent money in repairs, but not nearly as much as the purchase price of the vehicle, and certainly not because it was a diesel or because it had a turbo charger.The service intervals for the CDI appear to have been artificially short. I never had a problem with heat in my 450, it keeps the cabin nice and toasty in the winter. Now the AC is another story.

There are other service options available in most areas to M-B.

For the gassers, perhaps, but for the diesels? I have not seen any. MB did not sell the diesel in the U.S.A. and did not make service information for the CDI available to Canadian third party service providers. It's all covered by IP law and copyrights, locked down about as tight as an iPhone. Now as I understand it (and my info might be amiss) the U.S.A. has a law that stipulates that the service information for any vehicle sold there must be available to third party service providers, so service and service information for the gassers should be readily available.

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Good responses all, keep them coming! This is a genuine opportunity to have your opinions really listened to at the highest level of Mercedes. Shortly before the actual meeting (July 30, so a couple of days previous) I will summarize all the thoughts given here and post in this thread for review by all, revise if needed then print off for the meeting. That is not a valid point for the purpose of this thread. MB wants to know how to fix the problems with the car, the marketing and MB service, not how people can avoid it. Independent service options are valuable in most threads here at CsC, but not this one. Rest of your points are valid and appreciated, don't get me wrong.Details? I agree in principle, but what in specific do you like and dislike?

These are just off the top of my head, and I got a little carried away and went beyond the ergonomics (sorry).For the worse...Instrumentation. I can not see the top half of the speedo.Power window switches. They stick out, impinging on cabin space, and are more awkward to use than the original switch that was flush to the interrior panel.More restrictive outward visibility to the rear quarters (no window).Sun shade rubs the top of my head. This is not only uncomfortable but will eventually become contaminated with "hair" and "oil".There was something about the electric power steering that really annoyed me too, like it hunted for what I wanted it to do. I did not feel in control. I'd have to drive one again to be more articulate on this one.Requirement for premium fuel.For the better.Larger cabin (but the window switches should still be flush to the door panel)Good sized glove compartment.Better interior trim (specifically not as much tridion visible (although I personally did not mind that))Larger fuel tankEasier access to the windscreen reservoir.You can actually use a key in a bona fide door-lock to gain access (should your car-battery die).Extra storage space in the tailgate (although this could also have been done on the 450)Still needs attentionWindscreen washer jets. They still miss their target.Faster shifting between gears. This is really annoying on hills where I lose almost 5km/h between shifts.Personal dislikes of the new model and it's design-language..That "Hershey Bar" dash. UGH. I have a 1974 BMW 2002 with a dash that is like this (but I can see ALL of the speedo in the BMW).Front end styling is awfully aggressive looking for such a meek machine.The PRND shift lever creates an expectation of a manner of operation that the car does not fulfil. This is not an automatic transmission with a silky smooth planetary gear train, which is what people expect when they see PRND.

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You can't seriously expect people to believe that MB does not have the engineering chops to build small fuel-effieicnt cars. Of course they do! Although they appear to think it beneath them.

It's neither inability of their engineers as Huronland suggests, or their snobbery / lack of willingness per se.....becase when you only sell 10,000-15,000 cdi-engined smarts a year, it is simply not economical to design and produce a new diesel engine (or even the current one). In fact, even for the 90,000 gas models they sell per year, it was still uneconomical to do the gas engine in house, which is where Mitsubishi came in with the 451 and where Renault will come in handy in the future, possibly with a diesel as well (if Renault wants that option in the 2 seat version of the new Twingo). Cheap cars can't have low volume engines (it's FAR too expensive).

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I agree about the electric power steering in the 451, it is entirely lifeless and un-natural feeling, rather like that in the B 200 I own, but worse because the car is so light and prone to wander in wind on the base tires. The manual steering in the 450 is a total delight.

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I agree about the electric power steering in the 451, it is entirely lifeless and un-natural feeling, rather like that in the B 200 I own, but worse because the car is so light and prone to wander in wind on the base tires. The manual steering in the 450 is a total delight.

Very true, I got the 451 with manual steering and although a bit heavy feeling at firstit is very predictable and consistent, much like the older MB dieselsmy friends 451 with power steering by comparison, is too much, too easyespecially on the freewaythe auto trans however, don't even get me startedsufficient to say, that not having a manual transis almost up there with not being able to have the diesel engineCM

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How about a CVT transmission? B) Patrice

that's pretty insightfulwith the comparatively narrower torque band of a diesel, a CVT makes a fair amount of sensenot a gas engine CVT, a HD one of coursewould be much appreciated over the current mystery auto transI however, prefer a lever to change gearsif and when I want to, for any reason I choose but most especially while driving on black icebut, I'm only a customerwhy should I be able to purchase what I want ?CM

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