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Alex

Upcoming Focus Group On The Smart.

70 posts in this topic

that's pretty insightfulwith the comparatively narrower torque band of a diesel, a CVT makes a fair amount of sensenot a gas engine CVT, a HD one of coursewould be much appreciated over the current mystery auto transI however, prefer a lever to change gearsif and when I want to, for any reason I choose but most especially while driving on black icebut, I'm only a customerwhy should I be able to purchase what I want ?CM

I agree, the forwto's Diesel characteristics lend itself well to a cvt....the Justy Subaru used one, I would prefer it too!

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Having experienced the CVT in the iQ, I would not wish that upon my worst enemy.

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I hear much about how bad CVTs are, and wonder why that's the case? A CVT can start out in any ratio. Do the manufacturers put it in some stupidly low stump-pulling ratio for initial launch and cause the engine to rev like crazy? Theoretically the CVT should be able to keep the engine in its sweet-spot, maximum torque at any speed, and it doesn't do this?

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In a 451, the CVT would have the engine at a very noisy 4500 RPM when accelerating moderately....the B Class with the CVT is just dreadful. Punch it and it'll go to peak power RPM and stay there until you relent. It was sort of cool in the 1962 DAF my friend's mom had, but today it's just annoying!

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Sort of like a particular uphill lefthand turn I make where I slow for oncoming traffic, step on the gas & the car takes 2, maybe 2&1/2 seconds to come up with 3rd gear? ;)

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Every car i have driven with a CVT is horrible. It just ruins any sense of fun. Put a 6 or 7 speed DSG box in there, and it would transform the car!!!! Manual tranny with near instantanious gear changes!!!!!The ONLY combination I would even consider would be a CDI with more power combined with a DSG. Anything else and I am looking elsewhere.

Edited by MightyMouseTech

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I'd love a dsg but would there be any room for one?And a manual would be the best if only to be rid of the "3 bars of death" when the cars battery starts to age & the SAM can't decide what gear it"s chosen! :lol:

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I never have experienced a 2.5 second shift delay, because I don't use softouch in situations where I am paying attention to driving. DSG would be nice, but too expensive for the class.

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I never have experienced a 2.5 second shift delay, because I don't use softouch in situations where I am paying attention to driving.

Oddly enough this was played out in manual mode, I was loath to take my eyes off the road to check the gear I was in & gearing down manually took as long to achieve the same result....with my Taco it's boot down a gear & put the coal to her Which reminds me, does anyone know if it's possible to add a gear indicator function to the SGII display?

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I have a 2008 so some of the changes I am recommending may already be integrated into newer models...Bigger glove boxBetter access to seat latches. It is awkward to move the seats with the latches on the inside of the seats.Move the aux cord out of the glove boxEnable the passenger seat to flip up

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If they continue with a panoramic roof, a sun shade that keeps out the heat would be nice. In the same vein, better UV coatings on all the windows would help the A/C system.

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VW is able to get a 7 speed DSG in their L1 concept....

http://www.insideline.com/volkswagen/l1/20...kswagen-l1.html

Would make a HUGE difference in acceleration times, and would shift fast enough that the turbo would not loose boost, again making the car that much faster with the max power it has. I bet if you had a similar 7 speed DSG in a 450, it would knock about 5 to 8 secs off 0-60.

Like I said, if the new car does not come with a real tranny like a DSG, I would not even consider it. If I wanted a CVT, I would buy a snowmobile. HA HA!

Edited by MightyMouseTech

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VW's (BW's) 7-speed low-torque DSG is similar in size and weight to the Getrag SMG in the smart. In Europe it's offered on the Golf and Polo. It would be the beans for the fortwo, no doubt. I estimate about a 3.5 second shave off the 0-100 km/h time.

FWIW, there has not been a Dodge Sprinter since 2009. Next year Chrysler will introduce a Dodge version of the FIAT Ducato.

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I have 200,000 km in the 450. I would not consider the 451. If you have a car this funky you want to be able to brag about fuel economy and the 451 just doesn't cut it there.I still really like the 450 and will hold on to it for a bit longer.Likes,Fuel Economy,Fits anywhere. Not many cars can do a U-turn into a single parallel parking spot on a city street! (who me? :evil: )It is differentDislikesRoughness of the suspension and the engineCold in winterPoorly designed for Canadian winters - brake switch, springs (not really associated with our winter), door handles ...I can't handle the big car any more!I have not really experienced the snooty dealer syndrome. Particular here in a small market dealership. The guys there are community members - our kids played ball together. Yes they do charge MB shop rates on an econobox but how can you avoid that? They do repair by replacement rather than R&R but that seems to be the norm for any dealership. I always thought that Chrysler would have been a better outlet for smart back in the day but that is not how it went. To make things worse, MB demanded that to get smart authorization MB dealers couldn't have other vendors (such as Volvo) on the same lot. That was dumb. Now we have two dealerships, two buildings, two sets of overheads and high shop rates. Surprise! Not sure if smart will get me back as a customer in a couple of years. I would consider the electric drive. I would consider a smart with a ford Ecotec gas engine or a renault diesel. (I agree with Mike - too expensive for a one off engine.) A new roadster - with Electric Drive? Hell yes! Frankly, though, there is competition out there now and lots of interesting choices. It is good that MB is doing some research. Lets see if they do anything. Will North America go Euro - MB dealers embracing entry level and working people up to luxury over time? Or will they stand pat with luxury cars and let the smart (and by extension the B ) die a natural death?

Edited by swl

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Hi all. Good thread and excellent suggestions!Like most, a better transmission with smoother shifting and perhaps better gear ranges would be nice. I am loving the Smart for a lot of reasons but the obvious one is economy. I drive 210km round-trip every day and it's a real pleasure to not be spending $150/week on gas.In my perfect world, the Smart would have:1) better suspension (Oiy, such a ride sometimes :o )2) better UV blocking / heat blocking with the panoramic roof.3) a factory block heater that comes standard with a diesel4) a freakin' drain plug in the oil pan!!! :angry: ..and most of the other suggestions already made.Why can' they just take a 2013 gasser body (and toys) and drop a nice wee diesel into it? Oh well....Great thread!Tom

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The CDI is still available in Europe, same engine as the 450, modestly updated. No word yet on what the next generation will be. We were in Spain and Portugal last fall, I had a good look at one. It looked very different, the EGR and intercooler were moved and different, the whole engine compartment looked completely different, but it is very much the same basic engine. More than half of the cars sold at that dealer were CDI, said the nice lady who let me look, photograph and ask questions despite having no possibility of buying. BTW, it was a smart dealer, not the reluctant add-on smart center of a snooty MB dealership. Tons of smarts there in Europe! As well as dozens of other car models of about the size and fuel economy of the smart.Without the phenomenal fuel economy of the CDI, I won't buy a new smart. I will keep my 450 for a lo-o-o-ng time yet, would consider a new one with a CDI, especially if the heat and reliability issues were addressed, upgrade "consider" to "buy" if the funky styling and gorgeous curvy dash of the 450 came back, but the current 451 does nothing for me. Premium gas eats up the incremental edge in economy over a Yaris, it looks like a bland Toyota inside, but without the room, reliability, cheaper parts and widely available service of a Toyota. I don't get it, so I won't get it. ;)

Edited by Alex

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3) a factory block heater that comes standard with a diesel4) a freakin' drain plug in the oil pan!!! :angry:

The Plug is already there at the front of your car for the heater. It's not a difficult or expensive job to install an oil pan heater (call 'uncle Glenn') My '05 is nice and toasty even in the winter. A cabin heater can be added (by plugging into the existing female 110V plug under the carpet near the battery on the passenger side) to aid in the heat issue. (mine has a "Little Buddy" cabin heater which works wonderfully).There are different views about the drain plug. Both views have been discussed at length in other threads. The 'no drain plug' view is, with the correct equipment, it is cleaner and easier. The down side is that the DIY'er might not have the extractor needed to perform this means of oil change.The 'drain plug' view is that the DIY'er can do it without special equipment (the extractor). The down side is that it's messier and the plug hangs low enough that it could potentially be sheared off by going over an obstacle that would normally be missed without the drain plug. Ground clearance is at a premium, and the drain plug lowers that.

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especially if the heat and reliability issues were addressed

I'm not sure if the heat issues can be addressed. Heat and fuel economy are inversely related. This engine is so small and efficient there is not a lot a waste heat to redirect to the cabin. In the middle of winter the car is almost running air cooled. It would be interesting to put a temp guage on the beast just to see how much heat is available. Many of the reliablility issues can be addressed. Better shielding, dialectric grease, and my favorite "better service routines". Door handles would not seize if they used the right lubricant and refreshed it regularly. Other aspects of the car, turbo and EGR, for example might be costly to improve. It is sad that North American polution regulations keep the Euro diesel away from us. Maybe they have addressed some of those issues with the new layout of the engine.

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Having experienced the CVT in the iQ, I would not wish that upon my worst enemy.

And as Car and Driver has pointed out, that vehicle badged as a Toyota elsewhere in the world is available with a standard manual transmission so the components are there and being used as an option to others.For that matter, I would prefer a standard manual transmission in my Smart ten times out of ten. A long time friend and colleague didn't buy one (Smart) over the transmission alone.

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It would be interesting to put a temp guage on the beast just to see how much heat is available.

I did precisely that last winter.

I used a small, but accurate thermometer in the cabin of my '05 to see how it did without the aid of the cabin heater. The outside temperature during this test was minus 10C (14F). In city driving, the cabin temps were about 18C (64 F) and when on the highway, the temps rose to about 23C (74F).

I'm sure the cabin temps would have gone higher on the highway, but my trip was only about 8 kms (5 miles) long.

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Bump! (For good reason.)

The focus group is July 30, I just got confirmation that it is on.

(repeat of the thread opening, just for convenience)

My main points will be:

1: Engine choices. Bring the diesel back! For anyone doing high mileage, either light business/delivery like me or a long commute, the phenomenal economy of the CDI really helps overcome the shortcomings of the car. To my mind, there should be the CDI for the high mileage drivers, the electric for the purely short trip city cars, and the Brabus turbo for the "toy" cars. Don't need the current engine at all, without the mileage of the CDI, nor the green-ness of the ED, or the fun of 112 HP from the hopped up Brabus. With the need for premium gas, any incremental edge over a Yaris/Fit etc is eaten up.

2: Harden the car a bit against the hideous conditions of a Canadian winter. Better electrical connections would be the main focus there. Something as simple as a good application of a thick lubricating anti-oxidant spray-on coating would really help the the seals to seal and the contacts to resist damage when the seals still leak.

3: This is a difficult one, but the smart really doesn't fit well with the North American style of Mercedes dealerships, so focused on an elite luxury image. In Europe there are many more practical small Mercedes, and commercial vehicles as well. Could the smart, the Sprinter van, and any other practical vehicles that may be offered here suit a separate division? Or a much smaller group of dual-focus dealerships? This is indeed a difficult one, you see.

4: Marketing: Focus strongly on promoting the smart as a second car. We at CsC already know this, but the general public may not. The smart would suit very few people as an only car, but a great many families would love it as a second or third car. People tend to overlook the fact that 90% of their driving could be done in a smart, instead obsessing on the 10% which can't. So promote it as a second car, just the one that you choose to drive whenever possible because it's just so darn much fun!

"Aww Honey, do I HAVE to drive that wallowing SUV today?"

"Yes, you know you have to pick up the kids after work, I have that appointment. Now stop complaining and give me the keys, I get the smart today!"

Extra points picked up from this thread.

Transmission: I suspect a conventional manual is out of the question, due to the need to then have a conventional automatic for the American market, but I agree it would be nice. A double clutch just might be possible... And would be very sweet indeed!

Ergonomics and interior: Dash angle and height for taller people. Rear view mirror ditto. The view angle sucks for taller people.

There is a large wasted space forward of the passengers feet in the 450. Either a swing open storage tub, call it a bootbox to differentiate it from a glovebox, or a stretchy retainer net curtain thingy there would be nice. Can someone confirm that space exists on the 451? Under the dash, ahead of your feet on the passenger side.

Styling: The 450 has a wonderfully different funky look, especially with the curvy dash. The 451 is Toyota-bland by comparison.

AC that lasts! And a heater that works in the winter. Tolsen has proved that there is ample heat produced by the CDI, it just a matter of not letting it all be wasted by a leaky thermostat, un-insulated heater pipes and a heater return via the expansion tank.

Anything else? Speak now or forever hold your peace! This will get heard at the highest levels of MB, don't be shy. They may not act on it, but they will listen, which is a start.

Edited by Alex

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Chevy is going to allow us to buy a Diesel Cruze in 2013,so when my 450 bites the biscuit and if there's no 451 cdi available I will (reluctantly) look them over....

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Bring in more Tailor-Made cars, at a loss if necessary, so dealers can show them and they can do the show circuit, and encourage some people to order customs from BRABUS.

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I didn't see door handles mentioned anywhere (might have been there, and I didn't see it), but looking after obvious flaws (free, regardless of mileage or age) in the 450 door handles and a/c (which WAS mentioned) would do much to mend failing customer loyalty.

A happy customer would be more likely to return to buy something else from the same dealership if they are treated well enough during the ownership of their current ride.

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