dieselkiki

Cylinder Head

159 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Willys said:

OK, a few other pics to show what is what and where.

 

This shows piston at TDC as related to crank key way position.

 

20200402_135124.jpg

This shows cam lobes facing upwards away from rockers and not applying pressure to valves.

 

So I am confident that it is correct......UNLESS someone thinks cylinder #1 isn't the one next to the oil fill hole and to the far right of the engine....??????

 

OK, #1 piston is where we all think it is, far right next to oil fill hole just to clear that thought out of the equation.....lol.

 

 

 

lowest lobe in picture (nearest cam chain).it works an exhaust valve or is it an intake one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im going to go ahead and bet that its an intake one 

 

which makes you and the manual correct...but the other way (which is actually the conventional way they are marked) will work just fine

 

and again im going to say that the orientation of the words and numbers on the original parts are a big clue...a german engineer would have probably planned it that way 

 

 

edit:lost my edit window timeframe for last post on earlier page so i would like to add that the part in bold would have also been wrong for him to say...because having the lines at the bottom is in fact the proper position for tdc of #1 on compression stroke 

Edited by LooseLugNuts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so here is what i did last night with my running engine i have mounted on a stand.

removed valve cover, vacuum pump, high pressure pump and side plate so i can see everything.

then removed the injectors so engine can easily be rolled by hand.

dropped #1 injector back in the hole, then cranked engine by hand while holding finger on injector.  to make 100% certain that i could feel #1 piston coming up on the COMPRESSION stroke.

so this is timed correctly.

also correct is that as Looselugnuts states,  when the crank turns 1 revolution,  then cam goes 180 and is at TDC on the exhaust stroke.

 

 

 

pulley.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also now have an engine to disassemble to check BEFORE touching my finished engine in any way!
Tomorrow's work will be to copy what Sydney has done and hopefully verify what we all think.

BUT...I did see a post somewhere  last night that Tolson did say the engine knows when it is on the compression stroke by some vibration difference and thus triggers the injectors to fire correctly....by the electronics somehow..? Perhaps something like knowing when it is out of balance...maybe?  I don't know..?
Mechanically it can only be put together one way, the valves must be open or closed at the precise time for the engine to run. Then comes into play the timing of the spray from the injectors. That I do not know for sure  about other than one post Tolson suggested last night years and years ago on another site....IMHO...if someone knows the problem but refuses to inform the membership of the correct solution....Hmmm....what can I say?  Karma is the polite thing Hmmm...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Willys said:

I also now have an engine to disassemble to check BEFORE touching my finished engine in any way!
Tomorrow's work will be to copy what Sydney has done and hopefully verify what we all think.

BUT...I did see a post somewhere  last night that Tolson did say the engine knows when it is on the compression stroke by some vibration difference and thus triggers the injectors to fire correctly....by the electronics somehow..? Perhaps something like knowing when it is out of balance...maybe?  I don't know..?
Mechanically it can only be put together one way, the valves must be open or closed at the precise time for the engine to run. Then comes into play the timing of the spray from the injectors. That I do not know for sure  about other than one post Tolson suggested last night years and years ago on another site....IMHO...if someone knows the problem but refuses to inform the membership of the correct solution....Hmmm....what can I say?  Karma is the polite thing Hmmm...?

 

 

you're overthinking it

 

it can only be timed one way....crank key up with cam gear lines low is the exact same as crank key up with cam lines high

 

the crankshaft does not care whatsoever what stroke it on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know, but i have to see it to believe it,  or to accept it.....lol....Like i said, as long as my pictures show me the same as the running engine I'll be OK about it.....All this because of one comment...hope he's enjoying himself.....!   It sure lowered my opinion of him....from someone who was though so intelligent to this....what a shame!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, took many pictures as I disassembled it down to seeing entire timing chain......as many people have suggested...It doesn't matter where that timing mark is IMHO.  TDC is TDC no mater what, the cam is simply staging the valves to either open or close etc for one of the two strokes at TDC....either will work.
Now after saying that, how the engine figures out how to fire the injectors is a mystery still to me, but it isn't mechanical!  Any switch of any kind operates the same every time the crank passes the magnetic switch or reaches TDC. The only switch I can see is the crank positioning sensor.  IF there is another I am missing it also.

If nothing else I now have a good running turbo and exhaust manifold to keep as stock. Not sure if anything else is worth keeping just to fill up my shed..? Remember the engine has close to 300,000 kms or was it 400,000 kms...but it ran.either 280 or 380  I don't remember and I'm not installing that speedo into my beater just to see what number pops up......lol.

 

Thanks to everyone who helped contribute to this mystery BS....I appreciate it for sure.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I am going to have to say screw it and prey. Because my phone takes 4k pictures even one picture is twice the size as the max limit. I still have the crank cover on. I noticed the crank shaft is keyed. There is also a distinct hash mark on the crank case cover at about 2 o clock. The problem is that puts cylinder 1 at 1/4".... a bit more then .5 cm down from TDC. Do we agree that as long as cylinder 1 is at TDC then just put the cam gear and chain on and you are good?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Evolution said:

I think I am going to have to say screw it and prey. Because my phone takes 4k pictures even one picture is twice the size as the max limit. I still have the crank cover on. I noticed the crank shaft is keyed. There is also a distinct hash mark on the crank case cover at about 2 o clock. The problem is that puts cylinder 1 at 1/4".... a bit more then .5 cm down from TDC. Do we agree that as long as cylinder 1 is at TDC then just put the cam gear and chain on and you are good?

IMHO, and that is all it is.....and it's how my engine and also the one old running engine is....is identical to my rebuild pictures and so is Sydney's running engine. So it now is up to you to accept that as OK.
So copy my engine pictures exactly ....number  one cylinder that is the one closest to the oil fill hole, then cam set so cam sprocket is either aligned with the top of the head edge but up maybe 1/4" inch OR as I have it and the other two engine have it that run, under the cam sprocket bolt and perfectly level, lining up with two small tabs at that location. Either way the outcome is the same....imho....From what I understand the engine ECU can determine which stroke it's on by measuring the time between strokes to see the compression stroke being slightly slower than the other 3 and thus making it the compression stroke and then timing the injectors accordingly.  Whether or not that is worded correct I'm not 100% sure but it's what some of us are thinking is happening. Based on a video clip on You Tube.

 

 

Once you get it set up as suggested rotate it around to see if it interferes with anything  such as valves before simply firing it up.  At least you will feel any issues by turning it over by hand first if there is any.  It's what I did also when building my engine from scratch. Just to be safe.

 

Again this is just my opinion and as I have a good running engine that I took apart yesterday to confirm where it's timing marks were located, same as the other member's engines are timed and running correctly.

 

Hope this helps and helps stop the confusion brought on by someone else without explanation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with crank up inline with cylinder bore the pulley notch should match the mark on the cover...if it doesnt your pulley has probably slipped and lost bond with the rubber in the dampener

 

seen it happen many times on other engines..i dont remember if smart even has the rubber

 

but anyway i would suggest doing it the way the manual says...crank key up...cam pulley lines low and perpendicular to bore...

 

and i would clarify that crank key up means inline with bore because i think these engine are slanted so up doesnt literally mean straight up

and of course make sure the tight side of chain has no slack ...any and all slack needs to be on the tensioner side (rear)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

also i dont like dieselisekis photos lol....

 

i dont know if its the angle or what but to me it looks like everything is a tooth off....i dont like how cam gear appears under rotated by one tooth and the crank key looks slightly past center

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just going to put this out there....why would Smart make something to be installed upside down writing wise, they could have easily enough printed the sprockets the correct way if the sprocket was meant to be installed with the markings at the top edge....no...?  Then to add to this, in their own shop manual they show the markings below and the markings the correct way.   Makes you ask the question....common sense....and before you say the engineers had no common sense, they engineered the car.....most engineers i know do things neurotically straight forward not messing around as in reversing the lettering upside down..?  
Also when I build an engine I build it standing on it's bottom edge, so I relate things from that way of being....not as it sits in a vehicle. So key way is facing up along that long straight boss it shows to follow.   Same as installing the clutch/flywheel incorrectly...it's pinned and located if you work slowly you should observe things like that and not just jam things together. BUT, we all make mistakes and fair enough, if you own them I'm good with it.

Again, if proven wrong I'll own my mistake this time as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it was all good until I dropped a 4" deck screw into the engine. Now I have to take the panel off anyways. And at least from what I gathered it isn't that they designed the letters to be upside down. It is more that is doesn't matter as long as it is horizontal. The engine will correct is timing and pick it back up during the next firing. I dont know but that is what I have gathered from this conversation. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Evolution said:

Well it was all good until I dropped a 4" deck screw into the engine. Now I have to take the panel off anyways. And at least from what I gathered it isn't that they designed the letters to be upside down. It is more that is doesn't matter as long as it is horizontal. The engine will correct is timing and pick it back up during the next firing. I dont know but that is what I have gathered from this conversation. 

Sounds like someone else has the same luck as I do......a deck screw eh....dang!    How many hours have you spent with a magnet yet...?   Are deck screws even attracted to a magnet searching for them...I certainly hope so..lol.    SOB...!

Yep, this is how I am reading this also, the engine will figure it out as long as the timing chain is tight on the righthand side or tension side to make 100% sure crank and cam is timed right , it'll figure it out when trying to start then keep it that way until it shuts off.....now does it do this procedure every time it tries to start or just if it feels a problem...? I expect it'll check each and every time just because ...?

 

I think we have this finally sorted out...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Willys said:

Sounds like someone else has the same luck as I do......a deck screw eh....dang!    How many hours have you spent with a magnet yet...?   Are deck screws even attracted to a magnet searching for them...I certainly hope so..lol.    SOB...!

Yep, this is how I am reading this also, the engine will figure it out as long as the timing chain is tight on the righthand side or tension side to make 100% sure crank and cam is timed right , it'll figure it out when trying to start then keep it that way until it shuts off.....now does it do this procedure every time it tries to start or just if it feels a problem...? I expect it'll check each and every time just because ...?

 

I think we have this finally sorted out...

untill someone says   "WRONG"...  lol

41 minutes ago, Willys said:

 

 

Edited by Sydney
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2021 at 10:32 AM, Sydney said:

untill someone says   "WRONG"...  lol

Exactly. I had just got mad at that point and stormed off. Luckily my step dad had a "part finder" just lying around. Basically it is a 3ft part grabber with a button at one end and four little grabber tongs on the end. You can just put a fridge magnet in the tongs and digging for screws and such. Came out in about 5 seconds haha. Regarding timing I am guessing that once it fixes its self you are good. The smart car guy at my mechanics is really interested in the diesel. He helped me find a timing video. He told me even though it is German that you can still follow along they are that in depth. I will track it down and let you decide.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I get why he was glad to find it. It appears to be gas, the gear is different, and I am not sure if the hole/mark he lines up are the same relevance on the diesel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's very similar to most gasoline engines in theory but the diesel cam isn't sitting that high in the head, so our can sprocket doesn't line up like his does. But the crank is the same, but his block doesn't have the same bosses or inner markings like we do.  His chain tensioner also doesn't have a self tensioning pin to make it easy for installation, as we see him fighting to get it installed.  You are correct we can follow along but ......it isn't the same.  imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree to both. It is interesting the words that I can understand in the middle of some sentences. But I do notice that there are similar marks on the gear. I do not know quite what you are referring to for the marks on the block. Which block above the head gasket or the actual engine block? I will bet you money that he had an easier time then I did. I have not taken the side case once. Having to pry that gear on the cam pully suck. Which is how I lost the deck screw by the way. Forgot to mention it was a heavy duty steel screw so it was easy.

 

Edited by Evolution
Missing information

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Evolution said:

Agree to both. It is interesting the words that I can understand in the middle of some sentences. But I do notice that there are similar marks on the gear. I do not know quite what you are referring to for the marks on the block. Which block above the head gasket or the actual engine block? I will bet you money that he had an easier time then I did. I have not taken the side case once. Having to pry that gear on the cam pully suck. Which is how I lost the deck screw by the way. Forgot to mention it was a heavy duty steel screw so it was easy.

 

Look closely at my rebuild pics and watch for the strengthening bosses in the block that others have said to align up the key way with, basically up-right or vertical from  the edge of the block. 12 O'Clock position. It magically aligns with a long tubular section on the block surface, why you need that when you simply run #1 piston to TDC is beyond me? Plus you can also simply install  temporarily install crank pulley to see timing marks align also..?  The cam sprocket isn't punched out the same as the one I have or the stock one if i remember correctly....you can again check that with the pics above.  Doh....lol.    When you look at the height of the top of the head surface on my block and the one this guy is using you'll see the difference.....My cam sprocket doesn't sit as far out of the head as his does.   
As for prying the chain back on the cam with the sprocket, damn!   Did you get the correct timing in the end? That is a dangerous way to do it. Hopefully you got it done right...lol.  I have heard of people jamming a piece of wood down between the chain to lock it in place then change the cam sprocket and yes I too have done this on other engines and did think about it here in a worse case issue, as in if I had to deal with moving my timing...lol.  You end up with bits of wood in places where it shouldn't be. I used to use a hammer handle, hard wood. It was shaved to just the right thickness to lock up the adjuster and then you could carefully take cam sprocket off and adjust chain on the sprocket to again advance by a tooth. I've even made cam sprockets that had many different locating holes so you can adjust the timing  up to 6 degree again if I remember correctly. Done on a degree wheel  and mill for accuracy.
So, don't expect that video to be accurate compared to a diesel engine imho. The procedure isn't far off but the parts aren't perfectly the same.

 

Here in Canucklestan we are forced to learn French until grade 10 I think it was....I do not do well with people demanding I do things , even now...lol. So after grade 10 you still were required to take a language course  so i chose German. It was simple to learn compared to years of wasting my time with French!  One semester I learned to speak conversational German slowly but could understand and get across what i wanted  to someone speaking German. OK, as anything else, if you don't use it you loose it....but i still can grab the basic jist of what is being said.  Not a bad language to learn IF you had to learn one...lol.   But is it that useful in today's world..? I don't know?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, was really hoping the crank position didn't matter. Luckily it is keyed completely vertical. Btw yes prying the gear on sucks. I have done it about 8 times. I assumed that is how it was supposed to be done I just assumed I was doing it poorly. This is the first engine I have put together. I just used a wood shim to not mar the aluminum like I did the first time. Luckily you can pull the chain taught to see how it lines up and then remove the chain and slide it one link over if need be. OK, so, the marks on the gear are horizontal, and the key on the crank shaft is completely vertical. I think it is good. I even had to buy one of the extended 6in T55 bits. I think this thing is finally ready.

Edited by Evolution
Missing information

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you build it from scratch so to speak or in the sub frame? OR did you just work with the engine with head on and do whatever was required to fix the issue?  IF you built it from scratch then you should have installed the head the cam gear with timing chain  before the tensioner, and front cover....makes life so much easier....when you do not have the chain tensioner fighting you the whole way.   It is very difficult to get it right on the first try the way you are doing it...yep speaking from experience...lol. Hopefully you have it right and not out a tooth...fingers crossed.

After getting the chain and sprocket in place, slowly turn the motor over a complete cycle or two just to be sure it's not contacting the valves etc.   That would be bad...

 

 

Edited by Willys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

    Chatbox
    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More