dieselkiki

Cylinder Head

142 posts in this topic

First round of reply from IWIS arrived this evening. They have "never heard" of chain damage like this. And the message does not (yet) address the main thrust of my enquiry as to whether they can supply higher-grade aftermarket replacements.

This is just the opening of discussion. If any of you have input or comments that should be included in our reply, please let me know. Would I be right to say, from reading comments in here that our main concern is the timing chain and sprocket rather than the oil pump kit?

I'd especially like your ideas regarding the prevalence (or not) of this chain and sprocket issue.

I will be careful not to imply that their product is intrinsically deficient or defective in any way and that we are not seeking to blame IWIS for these parts failures - I am certain they are a highly reputable and proud company - just that we would like a more wear-resistant option. I'll leave this post a few days for your comments before formulating a reply.

Bil :sun:

Dear Bil,

First of all we have some questions:

We have never heard anything about problems at the OM 660.

How many chain failures do you have in your club?

Why do you have a double row sprocket on one of the pictures? The OM660 is using a single row chain.

Furthermore the oil pump drive is not from iwis it is from a competitor.

Please look at the enclosure when you need a replacement [he has attached a pdf with part numbers for standard chain kit as from MB/smart] and contact Mr. Jeff Lateer more information about this Timing Chain Kits.

Best regards

Holger Frank

iwis motorsysteme GmbH & Co. KG

Albert-Rosshaupter-Strasse 53

81369 Muenchen

Germany

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mine is a low mileage Smart first registered in 2002. Have only clocked 176,000 km so far.

Mine has 187,000 kms on it.

As regards doing the job in situ or with engine out, I certainly would go for the latter. You remove the whole power train complete with subframe, deDion tube and wheels etc in 30 minutes.

Would this be what I see being referred to as the "Rear Drive Module"?

Then place engine on an engine stand for ease of access and less strain on your back. Clean and paint deDion tube and engine subframe whilst it is all out. Also, touch up chassis as required before it is too late.This I intend to do before the winter comes. Mine is looking rather rusty from below so something has to be done before the rust goes too deep making Swiss cheese and iron ore out of my Smart.

Exactly what I need to do and for the same reason. LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First round of reply from IWIS arrived this evening. They have "never heard" of chain damage like this. And the message does not (yet) address the main thrust of my enquiry as to whether they can supply higher-grade aftermarket replacements.

This is just the opening of discussion. If any of you have input or comments that should be included in our reply, please let me know. Would I be right to say, from reading comments in here that our main concern is the timing chain and sprocket rather than the oil pump kit?

I'd especially like your ideas regarding the prevalence (or not) of this chain and sprocket issue.

I will be careful not to imply that their product is intrinsically deficient or defective in any way and that we are not seeking to blame IWIS for these parts failures - I am certain they are a highly reputable and proud company - just that we would like a more wear-resistant option. I'll leave this post a few days for your comments before formulating a reply.

Bil :sun:

They never heared about timing chain and sprocket failure? Hmm... it's strange! :huh: I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

If they need name of people who have some timing chain/sprocket problem, you could use mine and all my smart information. But I dont know what to add at your reply except about more reliable chain/sprocket kit. :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question for those who have sen the innards: do the lower timing chain sprocket and the oil pump sprocket next to it look exactly the same? We now know that they are made by two different companies but do they appear to spec the same dimensions?Reason I ask is, if we find that one Mfgr (IWIS) can supply a superior lower sprocket, can we use the same for both drives?Bil :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not the same sprockets. They are differents. :(And both crankshaft sprockets look to be reliable. But oil pump/timing sprockets and chains... dont last for thé engine lifetime. :(

Edited by dieselkiki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a photo of my top sprocket. Looks pretty normal, I guess :dunno:

@ 119,000km

Posted Image

Seems to me from photos up-thread that the teeth are worn more than tolsen's but less that sbungay's.

Bil :sun:

PS moderator - is it possible to split out this chain-and-sprocket discussion from the cylinder head thread?

Edited by bilgladstone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not the same sprockets. They are differents. :(And both crankshaft sprockets look to be reliable. But oil pump/timing sprockets and chains... dont last for thé engine lifetime. :(

What I was afraid of... Any clue who makes the oil pump drive?? Not much point bothering IWIS if the fail system is made by the other guy!Bil :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I photographed mine today, first, the 40,000 km Canada 1 and the one with a wisp of oil fumes coming out is the 241,000 km green and black car (it's a tad out of focus). So far as I can tell without a caliper or some other measuring device, they look identical.

post-5-1346696205_thumb.jpg

post-5-1346696467_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those look to be in excellent condition Mike. I just put the photos from Bill, Tolsen, you, and me side by side and compared them. The teeth on mine appear to be non-existent. I' draining the coolant today and removing the wiring (tagging each connector as it gets removed) in preparation for removing the power module. Progress is slow but steady.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those look to be in excellent condition Mike. I just put the photos from Bill, Tolsen, you, and me side by side and compared them. The teeth on mine appear to be non-existent. I' draining the coolant today and removing the wiring (tagging each connector as it gets removed) in preparation for removing the power module. Progress is slow but steady.

Good luck!! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm back from NY city with the smart. We went there with friends who had their smart too. My CDI did the ride without any problem! Strong power was there under the foot on 87 interstate to climbed the adirondack mountains. That was great!But... unfortunatly, this morning, in the New Jersey, my friend smart CDI alternator died . It was the first time I realised that traveling with a CDI smart car int the USA could be very limiting when a failure occure. No parts and no services available. Luckily, we are resourceful! ;)So, I'm still happy of my "open-heart-surgery". The second test is performed. ;)

Edited by dieselkiki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we need is a volunteer (not me!) whose car has well over 200,000 km on it and no known problems with noise to tear down the engine and see if there is any wear on the chain or the sprockets. I would theoretically love to do it on my 240,000 km car, but I don't have the money or the time.Once the engine is making unusual noises, it's probably too late to figure out what the root cause of the problem is.If Alex is correct, all cdis should be showing the same phenomenon as they get up to 200K km but I am pretty sure it's not universal....I would lean instead towards suspecting some duff batches of parts with faulty metallurgy - mainly, the chains. That the tenioners on Dom's car were fine is truly vexing to earlier theories about failure modes.

I will volunteer mine. Its not in service right now, so wouldn't be missed. Now, who wants to do the work?Debbie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Debbie,How many km are on your car right now? I'm located in Calgary too and I'm focusing on the timing chain/oil pump chain issues at the moment, trying to find a solution to this problem. I reason that this is a good target to focus on first, since this issue kills the engines outright if not caught in time.Is your car not being used due to a mechanical issue? Or is it just parked? Please PM if you wish to discuss this further.Regards,Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys,

Perhaps are you remember last year (before I replaced the cylinder head because there was a deffective exhaust valve/valve seat), I had a lot of difficulties to start the engine during not that cold weather (-7°c and below)?

So, this morning was a good one to test if the cylinder head replacement fixed my cold starting problem. And as you will see on this video I share with you, even with more than 206000km, an overnight at -30°c and no bockheater/battery heater, the little CDI start pretty much better!!

I was really impressed!

Enjoye!

(Clic on the picture)

Posted Image

Dom

Edited by dieselkiki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw the still picture but no video embedded. Can you give a direct link to video please?Brrrrr. Picture makes me feel COLD!Bil :sun:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw the still picture but no video embedded. Can you give a direct link to video please?Brrrrr. Picture makes me feel COLD!Bil :sun:

Clic on the still picture Bil! This is the link! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Time to revive a dead post. I managed to get my hands on a remanufactured 2010 CDI engine, just the engine. I also bought an 06 CDI. The person I bought it from needed the engine and I had the engine. We did the trade and he kept the engine. I noticed later he kept the clutch and the mounting hardware. I have a new clutch on the way from Germany as we speak. I already have the replacement clutch fork, now I need to figure out how to install it. But I have to time the engine first. I want to be sure the process is the same with my version of the engine. I know top dead center and lining the marks on the gear with the top of the block. I want to be sure the crank is properly timed as well. It is all put together and I don't want to replace any gaskets because it takes two months to get anything from where I bought the parts in Germany. I have a manual that I have to translate in real time through my phone but it is not optimal. I am hoping that lining up the marks on the gear is all I have to do. Please help, I have done everything I can to get one of these over the last few years. And with the border closed I will not be getting a second chance for a while. I would add some pictures but 2mb is small even for a basic picture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What makes you think an engine from a 2010 Smart 451 will work in a 2006 Smart 450?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couldn't find anything that said it wouldn't. All my research led me to believe that there was just 3 different horse power "versions" of the engine, and three model runs at the time. There was scarce information I had to go on as well. Other then that standard car stuff, length, trim, etc. are usually all that changes. To my knowledge smart technology doesn't change that much. I did just refresh my memory that the 450 was a 6 speed, and the 451 was a 5 speed so we will see how that goes. Honestly, I had a quote for EVERY part needed to convert a gas to a diesel and was prepared to pay it. I was stone walled at because every agency gave mem the ok but none would sign for it. I bought the engine to start buying all the parts. Then some guy found me on Smart car of America after saying I needed smarts but a diesel most of all. He had one he wanted to sell. Him selling me that saved be about $5000 to get the parts. I forgot/didn't know/didn't care to check for engine/trans fitment. If I have to I will buy that as well. Regardless I need to time the engine. I have a car without an engine, clutch or clutch mounting hardware. I also have a shiny engine without a car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Evolution said:

I want to be sure the crank is properly timed as well. It is all put together and I don't want to replace any gaskets because it takes two months to get anything from where I bought the parts in Germany. I have a manual that I have to translate in real time through my phone but it is not optimal. I am hoping that lining up the marks on the gear is all I have to do. Please help,

Timing......look very closely in your German manual,( I have the same one) It shows exactly where the CDI timing marks are supposed to line up with and they show it isn't where you think it is. Most engines use the top of the head surface or block to time the engine but this shows another position which is new to me and if I hadn't seen the picture of it in that manual I would have timed it incorrectly.  I also translated it using my cell phone, again what a pain in the ass that is...!   Also many technical terminology doesn't translate smoothly, so be prepared.   I am confused somewhat.....you are trying to install a modern CDI into an 05-06 smart or you are rebuilding the original engine for the car...? The timing may be different for the year you are working on if not an 05-06 model year.  That I do not know as it didn't relate to my engine.  Check every picture of the cam timing sprocket and you will see it clearly when you find it.  I'll try and find which exact pic it is and let you know.   Hope this helps if it does in fact relate to the year you are dealing with. IF there is a difference anyway...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Page 53 middle picture.....nothing else lines up correctly is why I started second guessing the usual way.

 

I have way too many pictures of my engine build in the WiKi section if you wish to look at them, it may help you...? I didn't comment on each photo just because I didn't want to take time away from building, I tend to get into a groove and forget to take pics or comment etc....So use them if you wish....hope they help.

 

Edited by Willys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Willys said:

20200402_135053.jpg

20200402_135104.jpg

Wrong if you attempt showing no 1 cylinder at TDC. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

    Chatbox
    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More