dieselkiki

Cylinder Head

142 posts in this topic

To clarify It is an engine from 2010 being put in an 06. I do not believe newer smarts made it to Canada, that I have been able to find. I do not have that side plate off as shown in the full stand up picture. I don't know if there is a gasket there but I do not want to have to replace one. And yes translating tech specs sucks. I will double check the manual and put the section with the cam and gear back on. I will try and get a picture that fits the 2mb limit.

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The newer CDI's didn't make it from what i understand....and I used Yama bond grey case sealant as a gasket. That plate you think is missing is the vacuum pump for the brake booster.

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On 1/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, tolsen said:

Wrong if you attempt showing no 1 cylinder at TDC. 

pulley.jpg

 

Here's another engine showing the very same timing.....and a runner....Hmmmm....?

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i do remember way back when i did my chains ..something didnt seem right the way i wanted to do it so i looked and looked online for proper timing mark locations and i dont recall where i found them (probably here) but i remember thinking it was opposite of what i thought (lines at the bottom as shown instead of at the top like every other engine ive worked on)

 

plus the way the words are properly oriented when the lines are lower kind of tells you something

 

 

 

 

 

Tolsen ...please correct us if we are wrong...i hate to see bad information on something so critical

 

 

Edited by LooseLugNuts

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i think id like to see the cam lobes to confirm my theory but either way (words upside down or downside up ) would still be correctly timed ,,,just at different top dead centers 

 

give the crank one more turn around to make tolsen happy

 

starting to remember why i hated working on these engines...vw tiguan engine has far surpassed it on my hate list though

Edited by LooseLugNuts

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I guess the last big thing before I reassemble it would be do I have to remove the whole side? I will post a picture from the manual as well that should provide some information for everyone. Should I bite the bullet and just bring it to the MB dealer with the trans and clutch and have them do it? I can always call them first.

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8 hours ago, LooseLugNuts said:

i think id like to see the cam lobes to confirm my theory but either way (words upside down or downside up ) would still be correctly timed ,,,just at different top dead centers 

 

give the crank one more turn around to make tolsen happy

 

starting to remember why i hated working on these engines...vw tiguan engine has far surpassed it on my hate list though

this is correct,  one of my running engines.  i took the valve cover off to confirm the cam lobes/valves closed and checked #1 with gauge thru the injector hole to make sure it was tdc on compression stroke

 

Edited by Sydney

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7 hours ago, Evolution said:

I guess the last big thing before I reassemble it would be do I have to remove the whole side? I will post a picture from the manual as well that should provide some information for everyone. Should I bite the bullet and just bring it to the MB dealer with the trans and clutch and have them do it? I can always call them first.


The MB dealer is not likely to touch it.  They didn’t sell 450s and nobody in North America got the 451 diesel.  I would suspect the engine to be much the same.  Hopefully the sensors and connections are the same.  

Don’t mind tolsen, he can come off as cranky sometimes but he is probably the most knowledgeable guy on the forum.  I saw his comment directed to you was in the middle of the night his time so maybe he needed some sleep.  He is likely the only one here that has seen both 450 and 451 diesels.

 

Sydney is the go to guy on the east coast, he caught the smart bug a few years ago and seems to acquiring a good collection of cars and parts.

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well crap.  now i am starting to second guess myself also.  i'm going back in my shop tonight after work and do a little more investigating.

when i scroll back (way back) in this thread the picture clearly shows the cam sprocket inverted and he says the car runs.

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1 hour ago, Sydney said:

well crap.  now i am starting to second guess myself also.  i'm going back in my shop tonight after work and do a little more investigating.

when i scroll back (way back) in this thread the picture clearly shows the cam sprocket inverted and he says the car runs.

I just finished re-reading the whole thread also and saw that post, but....your engine also ran.....and it seems to be correct...?

I am now going to open my STAR and search within it to see if they say anything about timing etc etc....see you in a week...lol.

I have no problem with opening up my engine as long as someone explains to me what is wrong and not just spitting out a single word and saying nothing else.....For all I know they are laughing  watching fools scramble for the answer...when he could simply inform us what is wrong and why....?

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Sydney

Willys and I were discussing this the other night.  I think the way Willys has it is correct but if you rotate the crank 360 degrees the marks will line up at the top but that will be the top of the exhaust stroke instead of compression.  In other words both will work.  

Just the way I see it.

Nigel

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I can't find anything in the STAR that relates to engine tear down or timing set up...Hmmm...?   Wouldn't a tech need to know how to change a timing chain etc etc...?  I didn't see anything relating to this at all...?  Strange..?

 

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Just think, if I took this to the American MB dealer they would be doing the same things we are. They don't even know these things exist. They will either have to call into Canada or Germany.

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so technically tolsen was wrong...willys picture does show cylinder number 1 at tdc...and the pic from dieseliseki on page 2 also shows cylinder at tdc

 

the only difference is the stroke ...which doesnt matter because im pretty sure the cam chain sprocket can only be installed in one position anyway

 

 

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14 minutes ago, LooseLugNuts said:

 

 

the only difference is the stroke ...which doesnt matter because im pretty sure the cam chain sprocket can only be installed in one position anyway

 

 

 

Exactly

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12 minutes ago, LooseLugNuts said:

so technically tolsen was wrong...willys picture does show cylinder number 1 at tdc...and the pic from dieseliseki on page 2 also shows cylinder at tdc

 

the only difference is the stroke ...which doesnt matter because im pretty sure the cam chain sprocket can only be installed in one position anyway

 

 

I do not remember but that small hole on the 10 o'clock location of the cam sprocket is that not a locating pin?   If you also look very carefully you can see a line behind the sprocket that lines up perfectly with the two lines on the sprocket which is how the manual says to time it.  When you flip the sprocket up the timing lines do not get to the top of the head surface as normal engines do.  You can just see that line in my pics as the block is perfectly clean making it easier to see.  I can only see the one on the right in that pic, barely.

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OK, a few other pics to show what is what and where.

20200330_174456.jpg

This shows piston at TDC as related to crank key way position.

 

20200402_135124.jpg

This shows cam lobes facing upwards away from rockers and not applying pressure to valves.

 

So I am confident that it is correct......UNLESS someone thinks cylinder #1 isn't the one next to the oil fill hole and to the far right of the engine....??????

 

OK, #1 piston is where we all think it is, far right next to oil fill hole just to clear that thought out of the equation.....lol.

Edited by Willys
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27 minutes ago, Evolution said:

Just think, if I took this to the American MB dealer they would be doing the same things we are. They don't even know these things exist. They will either have to call into Canada or Germany.

 

Since Mercedes-Benz never imported the diesels into the U.S. the American dealers have no obligation to know anything about them or to service them.  :)

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True, but they could do that anyways American or not. Just funny to think about. Not like I could get a warrantee. Although I did just get a call about that the other day.

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You would have better luck with a local shop that does a lot of Mercedes work and has a Star machine, but don't expect much expertise on any smart version.  :)

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OK, this is the picture I have for the timing of the engine from the shop manual.....it says....timing times when diesel, Markers A and B note.... Picture is Bild 6     the others are for petrol engines.

 

20210113_195038.jpg

 

But after speaking with IZZY,  we're not convinced this is correct yet..?    I am going to have to have visual proof that the cam lobes are facing the correct way as per rotation of the cam relative to position of the piston in the bore as to how everything is operating.  So when you look at the lobes of my cam, think of what happens as the piston goes down the bore and as the cam rotates as to what stroke it's on?  Then rotate the cam 180 degree and check what happens again.  Hopefully this can be checked on an engine that is already semi apart and not on my complete engine, if there is nothing actually incorrect with how mine is set up...?  Also when you look at the top of my head the closest valve to you is the intake valve then exhaust.  And then visualize that the engine rotates clockwise.

There are a few very helpful people here who are trying to help figure this out and not simply saying it's wrong without a reason why!  I thank them for all their help.
Also, if I am in fact wrong I will be the first to admit it and why and also explain it to everyone. Also how it was rectified.!!!   So others can learn from my mistake.

Edited by Willys
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its classic german idiot savant engineering

 

doesnt matter if you time it with line at the bottom or line at the top...you get the same results...injection pump only installs in one position...cam gear can only go on one way..vacuum pump doesnt matter

 

lines up or lines down you are in the same exact position just at different times <<pun intended

Edited by LooseLugNuts

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maybe the book says that way because you cant get a good eye on it at the top and the bottom alignment is easier in situ

 

or maybe they are just nutz

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On 2012-08-27 at 10:32 AM, dieselkiki said:

So as promised, here is the timing setting for smart CDI turbodiesel (OM660).

First of all, I want to let you know that neihter me or clubsmartcar.ca can be held responsible for accuracy of this procedure has timing. No rescourse for damages caused by the one who used this procedure. Got it? You are now informed.

Ok, now. The first thing to do when you must doing the timing setting on smart cdi is put your #1 piston in TDC (top dead center) position. To do this, there are tow way to do. The firt (by mercedes-benz) is to align the marks on the crankshaft damper pulley and the front cover (as shown on pictures).

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If your damper pulley are very rusty and the mark are no more visible on it, you can use the second way to do (the one I used). But you need to remove the front cover. Second way is alignment of the crankshaft pulley key with the straight ridge along the cylinder. It's anought precise. ( I remember you that my car is running). :P

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Now you must align the camshaft between "exhaust" and "intake" cycle. Mercedes-Benz procedure is using paint pencil and make a mark on the chain and on the procket to put back the cahin at the same place.

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This way are a good one but... If you put a new chain... "BZZZZZZZRRR" HELL WRONG!!

The other way I found by miself to align the camshaft is this one. On the camshaft sprocket there are 2 flat marks. I just have to align these marks with the cylinder head edge. You can use a flat bar or other flat tool the be sure that the maks are straight align with the head edge.

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Now you can put back your chain, tentioner, etc... Before replacing the cover, it's could be a good thing to take a double check at the marks and turn the crankshaft (clockwise) on 2 full turn to be sure there's no contact between valves and pistons.

Posted Image

So... thats'the way I did my timing setting. My CDI is running very well. I hope the topic could help some of you. It's so hard to find technical information for OM660 engine. I try to remedy this situation.

Have a good week.

Dominic ;)

 

I personally haven't done any chains....yet. But these were Dom's pics in the earlier post that shows the cam sprocket orientation. In my limited engine experiences, the cam always have some sort of slot as a "lock." Either way, I hope that someone will put a proper guide together once this is sorted out.

 

Izzy

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both sets of pictures are completely correct..as is the german manual

 

take diesel iseki photo and imagine if he turns the crank a full turn (with the chain on) ..the cam will make a half turn and be where the manual and willys shows

 

same exact timing positions but from different perspectives

 

 

hate to say it but the only thing in this thread i see wrong is tolsens reply that willys isnt showing #1 at top dead center....any picture with crank pulley key lined up inline with cylinder bore will be at tdc of #1....for tolsen to be correct he should have said that it is not at tdc of compression stroke 

 

semantics

 

 

 

edit:...but without an engine in front of me i cant really say which position is the actual compression or exhaust stroke pic...i can just say they are both one or other but  not the same

 

clear as mud?

Edited by LooseLugNuts
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