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tolsen

Air Filters

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Bil you always say just the right thing ...you big smoothyOr we can just bring back "Toss a Scotsman d ay!" :drink:

Edited by Coast Steve

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Who would have thought the truth about air filters and air intakes would be such a touchy subject and inconvenient for some. I've been out testing more filters and done additional calculations. It does not seem to be any point presenting the findings and conclusions to such a non appreciative public. Anyway, understanding the details presented do require a certain minimum of intelligence, something some of you clearly do not possess.

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Now you ARE wandering into insult and abuse, my friend. You could have done without that last spiteful sentence.Did you include ITG filters in these latest trials?Bil :sun:

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So typical of the belittlement previously shown by this blatherskite in other posts and on other sites...

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Big hugs then boys.After all we're all Smartie pants types .....well I'm not anymore I guess.I'm just a "has bin" ;)

Edited by Coast Steve

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Am I the only K&N user who isn't pissed off at Tolson!? I for one would like to see his new test results. TolsonAt times your comments have been curt or even insulting to some, just because someone ignores your test results about K&N or non OE filters (like me) doesn't make them stupid but maybe a little ignorant :) I for one am satisfied with my filter choice at the moment so please post your opinion but don't force us to adopt it or ridicule us for not agreeing. Everybody else:Its your car so do what you please! Tolson is just some guy on the other side of the pond (no offense Tolson) do you really care if he approves of your air filter. O ya and ITS JUST AN AIR FILTER!!! Life is to short to squabble over this crap. Now everyone join me in singing the song by the purple dinosaur Barney. I love you, you love me...

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Am I the only K&N user who isn't pissed off at Tolson!? I for one would like to see his new test results.

No, you are not the only one. I just can't be bothered to reply.... I usually just ignore most of Tolsen's posts.An air filter is not going to make a difference in performance. Best you can do is to always have a clean filter. This is why I have 2 K&N, keep a clean one ready to go at all times, usually swap it every 5000 km. Less waste for the environment. Edited by MightyMouseTech

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Tolsen, I love to read your posts. Please keep posting.I studied filtration years ago in chemical engineering. So I won't waste my money on aftermarket filtration.This thread is an interesting study on human behavior. If someone spends money on something designed to improve performance they will believe that it was worth the money. To do otherwise means that they were taken in by the marketing BS. Nobody wants to feel that they wasted their hard earned money.Unfortunately, there are many products out there that make outrageous and dishonest claims. Without threads like this one, many people won't know the good from equally good but more expensive alternatives or poorer products.Thanks to everyone for posting.

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Nobody has argued that K&N is making outrageous claims. In the right application -- a big V8 with an aggressive cam profile -- an oiled gauze filter like theirs can provide a modest gain of perhaps 5 bhp on the Dino. In a tiny Diesel engine that is not starved for air, however, the only true benefit is the potential for money savings over the course of many air filter services (changes).

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@ Francesco

Yes, that is why I included this in my list of comparative analyses above - the seven tests that would have put to rest all our questions on the subject.

B :sun:

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Tolsen should not dis the placebo effect. Keeps half the aftermarket manufacturers in business, it does! Scientific-sounding bafflegab, butt dyno results, made-up testimonials, celebrity endorsements, loud and shiny is what sells in the aftermarket, that's for sure.The long-term cost savings of a washable is real, I don't think the additional fine particles are greatly harmful assuming good oil change intervals, and some like the sound. I don't have one, won't get one, but whatever turns your crank is okay by me.

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more or less power is one thing but the real reason they are so good is they are reusable and washable.I'm sold on washable filters and always have been.18 bikes and now up to 26 cars /trucks, if I can get one for it I will buy one.

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I have oil samples that prove K&N lets in more dirt. I'm with Tolsen.... the dirt is not really worth it.

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Not just K&N; I daresay all non-paper OE filters are somewhat similar in that regard.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Do you remember how many kms were on that K&N when you took the oil samples? As Mike implied above, they don't begin to reach their optimal filtration until they have 40,000 kms or more of dust loading. This is what I mean by experimental context.Same as an oil filter: it needs some particulate load in order to filter down to its optimal micro-particle size. When new, all filters will pass more contaminants than they will after running for awhile. This is a 101.The trick is to find a filter that will continue to flow even with particulate load. That's why I use ITG.B :sun:

Edited by bilgladstone

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... The trick is to find a filter that will continue to flow even with particulate load. That's why I use ITG.

B :sun:

There already is one such filter - your original paper filter.

I found the original Smart filter that came with my Cabrio in 2002. Just quickly blew the dust off it, placed it in the air box and went for a test drive. Vacuums measured in TIK pipe before turbo were exactly the same as with a brand newish MANN paper air filter, see post 35.

It is on dust loading performance where paper filters really excel. Obviously due to their very large filtering area (4100 cm2) plus the filtering membrane being dry. The reason why the substandard reusable filters perform poorly when loaded up with dust, therefore requiring frequent cleaning, is that they have much less filtering surface area and oil and dust mix and form impenetrable putty, effectively clogging the filter.

Something I been wondering about these last days: What is the HP gain by fitting free flowing filters and shortening the inlet ducting like Bil, the tripist and presumably Coast Steve have done to their Smart cars?

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I doubt there is an actual gain, as I said above. Bil's "butt dyno" indicates that freer flow allows the various variables in the smart's daisy chain of data to react more freely; i.e.: the turbo spools both down and up quicker, allowing gear changes to occur more rapidly, etc.

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Back in the seventies, my Renault 5 had a Lynx foam air filter, which made a great noise on the oversized carb but I might as well have left the venturis open. Hey, I was 18.....

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Posted (edited) · Report post

"... reusable filters perform poorly when loaded up with dust ..."

Except for ITG tri-foam filters, which perform better when loaded up with dust. Better even than the OEM cellulose filter. Is there a reason the ITG is always ignored?

It is difficult to answer the question about the HP gain, because in tuning the car, I made multiple changes. Remap, air filter, oil filter, shorty intake, scavenging exhaust, stiffen the motor mounts, CCV redirect, friction reducer (maybe snake oil to you), EGR delete, etc. Ideally, one would make a single modification, then do a set of dyno pulls and fuel economy calculations to arrive at WHP, TQ, FE, etc, before doing the second mod, after which another set of quantitative measurements and so on. In real life, that's not what happens.

I have wanted for years to get a proper in-floor dynamometer series done on my car, but a) it is stupidly expensive here to have it done, and b ) the Kelowna shop that tried a couple of years back was not able to get their computer to communicate with the car, and c) this was a pickup truck tuner and the roller was so big and heavy that they said it might burn my clutch.

There is only so much extra power you can squeeze out of this engine without getting into the engine block and doing expensive things like cams and pistons, radically changing the fuelling with programming and injectors, etc. At that point, you'd be better off doing a "smartuki" conversion. For a daily-driver, that makes no sense. The magnitude of the difference with such mods as I have done might be between 65BHP and 67BHP (+3%) and not much more.

But the net effect of (what Francesco called) the "various variables in the smart's daisy chain" of dynamic events is definitely noticeable and has made the car much more pleasant to drive.

Bil :drive:

Edited by bilgladstone

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I bet the size of particles that could ever get through a good washable and oiled filter are so small they would do no damage to anything on a car anyway.I mean we're talking particles much smaller than you can even see.

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Depending on the nature of the material in you area potentially a big effect on oil life , which if not changed early enough WILL affect the engine, but Steve is right, the fine particles don't directly harm the engine. Much.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

This thread has now become a no win scenario. Can one of the moderators please lock it to protecteveryone's sanity?

Edited by lebikerboy

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