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Jeffbeck

Start, Run, Stall... Repeat!

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Thanks again for all the new ideas of checking things. I have a feeling that the parts vehicle I swapped injectors with were no good. All the tests lead me to believe that the injectors are no good. After running it for 15min, I pulled the injectors out and 2 had carbon on the end and were dry. I then swapped them around and the same two injectors were dry with new carbon build up. I tried swapping the other 3 injectors from the parts car, and they came out wet everytime but the car ran a bit better or worse with each one.... Dealer pricing for an injector is an insane $850/ea.... I suspect that just the tips need to be replaced. Does anyone know where the tips can be purchased or a place that is setup to bench test the injectors? I am in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

Edited by Jeffbeck

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When the engine was out and rebuilt, what did the timing chain parts (gear teeth) look like?

The chain and the cam sprocket looked worn, teeth starting to curl and spread open.

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Jeff,New idea, check to see if your turbo is siezed!Pull off the inlet hose you should be able to spin it with a finger.If turbo is good pull off the muffler/catalytic converter, it could be plugged.Canman

I put a new turbo on the car as well.... yes, more parts. I was wondering about a blocked intercooler so I have the inlet to intake manifold pipe off currently. I pulled the exhaust pipe off as well and it was the same running feeling.

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So could the chain be skipping/have skipped on the cam gear, resulting in bad timing? Those things are notorious for wear in some cars....you should change them plus inspect the oil spray jet for the timing chain, which is often sheared off by a flapping chain. Replacing a chain and not noticing the jet is gone will result in a quick death of the new chain.

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Well he did say he has replaced the timing chain and sprockets, but I didn't notice anything about the jet, I wouldn't think the new chain and sprockets have skipped, though they could of course have been installed incorrectly ( but one would hope the person who did the work did it properly).

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Well he did say he has replaced the timing chain and sprockets, but I didn't notice anything about the jet, I wouldn't think the new chain and sprockets have skipped, though they could of course have been installed incorrectly ( but one would hope the person who did the work did it properly).

Yes, that is correct, the chain and sprockets are new. The oil jet on the tensioner was free of debris when I checked on assembly. I rechecked the timing and it is good.

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600 cc engines are prone to oil spray pipe breaking off. Not an issue on our Cdi engines since there is no such pipe if my memory is working as intended.

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I have not found any info on injector tips, they exist as Chinese copies, but nothing from Bosch. That said some forum members have used a specialist in BC to get injectors rebuilt (Fred Holmes) with success, not sure where he is sourcing his parts! I have tried two different Bosch rebuilders in Ontario, there is nothing available from Bosch except remanufactured injectors complete. Still thinking what else it could be, I don't have any common rail manuals yet, everything I have is for the older technology with charts and diagnostics/tests etc. Have you swapped the emc on the air box? Can it be swapped without coding?

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I agree with Houseofdiesel, you have tried everything else try swapping the Electronic Control Unit located on the side of the air box.There are 2 large connectors on it, to remove the connectors there is a tang that has to be slid towards the rear of the car approximately 1 1/2 inches, pull on the tang and wiggle the body of the connector at the same time, keep pulling until you get it all the way to the rear, the connector won't release until you get the tang all the way back, it will be hard to move because of accumulated dirt.Remove the ECU and thoroughly clean the mounting surface both on the car and on the ECU before installation ( corrosion here may be your problem, not necessarily a bad ECU).The VIN numbers on the SAM and ECU won't be the same and will probably cause the check engine light to come on as well as the mileage will be different between the two units so the odometer probably won't display correctly but the engine "should" run.Or you can swap both the SAM and ECU from the doner car and you won't have the issue of the VINS being different between the SAM and ECU but the cars VIN and odometer won't be correct. I am only suggesting this for troubleshooting, if the ECU is defective you can try recoding the doner one, I am not sure if it can be done, you may need to buy a new one, but as Tolsen said troubleshoot first before replacing expensive parts.Canman

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I've tried swapping ECU…the immobilizer would not disarm in my case. ECU and SAM maybe dash has to be a set

Edited by stickman007

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That said some forum members have used a specialist in BC to get injectors rebuilt (Fred Holmes) with success, not sure where he is sourcing his parts!

That may have me, and it is not confirmed that they (Fred Holmes the company) can get parts. I just had a set of spare used injectors flushed and tested for storage in nice clean stable test fluid. No parts involved.They were able to work with the injectors in the sense of test firing them, and the guy seemed to think they could get parts, that's all. So if some Ontario shops couldn't get the tips that is probably the case for anyone.

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These injectors can be serviced by two diesel specialists in Aberdeen (Scotland) so there must be many outfits that can do them in Canada. Some diesel specialists will test them for free or for a minor fee so phone and ask.A leakage test is usually sufficient to confirm injector problems. Quick to do and does not require any expensive kits - only three identical small bottles and suitable hoses. I also checked the spray pattern on mine some years ago when I suffered start problems.These injectors are not cheap. Several hundred pounds for a new one and at least a hundred pounds for an exchange injector.

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These injectors can be serviced by two diesel specialists in Aberdeen (Scotland) so there must be many outfits that can do them in Canada. Some diesel specialists will test them for free or for a minor fee so phone and ask.A leakage test is usually sufficient to confirm injector problems. Quick to do and does not require any expensive kits - only three identical small bottles and suitable hoses. I also checked the spray pattern on mine some years ago when I suffered start problems.These injectors are not cheap. Several hundred pounds for a new one and at least a hundred pounds for an exchange injector.

I have been able to borrow a new injector to replace the wet tipped one and the smart started up and revved up better, but still not right. I just thought that the chances of having six bad injectors between two cars would be close to impossible. I guess I was wrong! If anyone knows where I can buy these injectors please send me a link! On the injectors that I suspect as the worst, they come out of the cylinder wet everytime... and the exhaust smells very rich.Is leakage the most common failure? Has anyone ever done these tests at home before? How do I do them?

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Has anyone ever done these tests at home before? How do I do them?

You don't! The smart CDI uses piezo injectors, which need a rapidly pulsed 5VDC signal. Not something you can bodge together in a common garage.Older injectors were usually a 12VDC solenoid which only needs a direct 12V connection and it would fire as long as the power was connected. The piezo ones will all test bad if you try that, because without the proper supply they will burn out almost instantly.Not to mention the need for absolute cleanliness, test fluid at 30 000 PSI, fittings to hook up with, high speed camera to capture the spray pattern, knowing what is and isn't a good spray, calibration table to test flow rates, inside knowledge of what codes corresponds to flow rates, etc. The leakage test doesn't tell you much about spray quality or flow rate, which is of some import to a diesel.With relevant experience a tech could conceivably get some vague idea after an awful lot of time, but given that you have some spare injectors just swapping them around as you've been doing sounds far easier. I don't think it's an injector problem. Did you perform a low pressure system check as Tolsen suggested? Tee a pressure gauge into the supply line at the high pressure pump so you can directly confirm you have steady supply at all times, after the pump, filter, kink in the line you didn't notice... You said the computer shows steady fuel rail pressure even when stalling, but I don't know. A fuel supply problem would explain it so very well, and a direct measurement would be nice to put that possibility to rest. After the pressure test use the tee to bleed off some flow looking for air bubbles before restoring to original plumbing.Post-rebuild compression test? Edited by Alex

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Have you been running on something different to standard diesel?Try a good injector cleaner with your best injectors fitted. I gave mine a treatment last month. Amazing improvement. Zero to sixty mph before was 25 seconds, After less than 15 seconds and no more visible smoke. I used the cheapest injector cleaner I could source. Silver Hook diesel treatment & injector cleaner costing GBP 3.15 per bottle.

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Have you been running on something different to standard diesel?Try a good injector cleaner with your best injectors fitted. I gave mine a treatment last month. Amazing improvement. Zero to sixty mph before was 25 seconds, After less than 15 seconds and no more visible smoke. I used the cheapest injector cleaner I could source. Silver Hook diesel treatment & injector cleaner costing GBP 3.15 per bottle.

I'll pick up some cleaner and try that out. With the new 1 new injector it will rev to max, but it is slow on the climbing rpm and smokes lots! Not much power either, will barely make the climb up the driveway (which is a lot better than barely running. I am wondering what would take out 3 injectors... Debriefs and soot, or possibly the over compression of the previous engine caused the injector failure....

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I have not found any info on injector tips, they exist as Chinese copies, but nothing from Bosch. That said some forum members have used a specialist in BC to get injectors rebuilt (Fred Holmes) with success, not sure where he is sourcing his parts! I have tried two different Bosch rebuilders in Ontario, there is nothing available from Bosch except remanufactured injectors complete. Still thinking what else it could be, I don't have any common rail manuals yet, everything I have is for the older technology with charts and diagnostics/tests etc. Have you swapped the emc on the air box? Can it be swapped without coding?

Thanks for all the ideas :). The ECM needs to be coded with the SAM and then with the remote keys. I spoke with Raj and Fred Holmes in BC and he recommended that I replace all injectors because they are very common to all have problems at the same time. I think he is right! I tried the cleaner in the tank and it has gotten better, but the car still runs poorly with very little power. I am surprised that such expensive components are worn out so quickly. Is it typically a 100k service interval for injectors and timing chain/sprockets?

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Same injectors are used in a large range of diesel cars so not only in our Cdi. Injectors are quickly made unserviceable when removing and refitting them provided the usual cleanliness procedures are not followed. I am not convinced the reported timing gear failures were caused by bad sprockets. More likely lack of lubrication due to owner neglect.

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Normally the injectors will last the entire life of the engine. Which for the cdi is usually well over 200k km, say 5000 hours.

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Same injectors are used in a large range of diesel cars so not only in our Cdi. Injectors are quickly made unserviceable when removing and refitting them provided the usual cleanliness procedures are not followed. I am not convinced the reported timing gear failures were caused by bad sprockets. More likely lack of lubrication due to owner neglect.

I suspect the same things... I just wish that the injectors were serviceable. I took out the new (known good injector) and replaced with the best looking injectors I had between the 2 cars. I added a lot of cetane booster and the car started and stayed running (like a stuck egr), but struggled to get up to speed. I then filled the tank up with fresh diesel to dilute the boost/cleaner... the car had a severe lack of power within a block (2x worse than a bad egr). Was able to limp it home, and tomorrow I am going to order 3 new injectors.

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3 new injectors is a major outlay, perhaps in the region of $2000.I would confirm the high pressure pump is not breaking up internally before fitting those new injectors. This is not a common failure with Bosch pumps but has happened to some. The whole fuel system becomes contaminated and you will find small metal particles in the fuel sender unit.

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[Omg! I thought that the metal was from the fuel pump! I have swapped the high pressure pump already. I hope that there is no more bits left in the system! Thanks for the info! Will let you know how it goes :)

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