Start, Run, Stall... Repeat!

[tolsen 630]

Injectors usually clean up fine with injector cleaner. I treated my Cdi to a £3.15 cure a few weeks ago and the improvement was just amazing. 0 to 60 mph before 25 second. After just below 16. I now find I have to ease back on the pedal.

[MikeT 744]

Fred Holmes is near Ikea Richmond but on the opposite side of Knight Street, just north of Bridgeport. They also do Peugeot gasoline injection systems, it's where I have had all 14 injectors for my 404 tested and they are good guys.

[Alex 21]

Fred Holmes was probably an individual at some point, but is now a proper business. Ask Google, it knows them.'Cost me about $100 to have mine flushed, tested and sealed for storage. (Sealed meaning only those rubber caps for the connections) The big idea was to get the diesel out and more stable test fluid in.

[MikeT 744]

Fred Holmes used to be located on Powell Street opposite the Renault Dealer, Pacific Inter Auto. Yeah that's going back a ways. Like the mid-1970s. They used to be the best mechanical fuel injection guys around.

[Jeffbeck 0]

Low pressure feed pump runs continuously when engine runs. Rail pressure at idle is around 235 bar. Rail pressure goes above 300 bar when cranking engine to start. Low pressure supply to high pressure pump should be 2 - 2.5 bar. 3rd pumping element in high pressure pump is enabled during start but disabled at idle. The wee connector on the high pressure pump is for the 3rd pumping element solenoid. Below thread shows the internal workings of high pressure pump:http://www.smartz.co.uk/showthread.php?161...-Cdi-2002/page2

Thanks! I am still going to replace the pump, but will check the pressures next

[tolsen 630]

Thanks! I am still going to replace the pump, but will check the pressures next

The fuel sender unit which houses fuel pump is rather expensive so perhaps better sourcing one 2nd hand. Even in the UK these cost a fortune but I found one reasonably priced recently:

http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/fuel-pump/...2-011-001Z.html

Of course no shipping to destinations outside Europe but worth considering if you come here on business or holidays.

[Jeffbeck 0]

The metal chunk are not usual but about the flow reduction after 5th cycling of ignition switch, I believe that it's normal. The fuel pump unit got a bottom bucket with a limited flow inlet valve. If the fuel level is under the pump unit bucket, the fuel can only reach the fuel bucket strainer by this low flow valve. So after the 5th cycling, I think that it's enough to empty the fuel in the bucket. Then if you want more fuel from the pump outlet, you must wait that the fuel cross the low flow flap and fill up the bucket again. This observation cost me 423$ (fuel pump). Yeap, my old fuel pump was good. The new one did the same! Hope it help and avoid that you waste a 423$ for low pressure fuel pump!Dom

I wish I read your post before I snapped a plastic clip off my old (and still good) fuel pump!

[Jeffbeck 0]

So I have tested the low pressure fuel lines, at 35-40PSI (2-2.5BAR) with a new fuel pump (because I broke the old one when inspecting it). The high pressure fuel system shows 280-300 at idle, but I am wondering if the DAS read out is just not fast enough to show a drop off in pressure because the car stalls out. I have swapped injectors, fuel rail w/sensors (possibly no good, from a parts car. Still having the same type of issue. Totally thrown off by the smooth idle for the first 5-10seconds. The only thing left that I can think of is the high pressure pump, and (god forbid) the fuel itself (which I have overlooked). I can't think of what else it could be if these things don't fix it....

[Jeffbeck 0]

Low pressure feed pump runs continuously when engine runs. Rail pressure at idle is around 235 bar. Rail pressure goes above 300 bar when cranking engine to start. Low pressure supply to high pressure pump should be 2 - 2.5 bar. 3rd pumping element in high pressure pump is enabled during start but disabled at idle. The wee connector on the high pressure pump is for the 3rd pumping element solenoid. Below thread shows the internal workings of high pressure pump:http://www.smartz.co.uk/showthread.php?161...-Cdi-2002/page2

Thanks for all the great info!I was thinking that perhaps the 3rd pump is the only thing keeping the car running at startup, then is shut down and the car stalls. is this possible?I also saw posts about injector cleaning, are the injectors able to be disassembled?

[MikeT 744]

Usually the third element is only needed for hard running at speed....if it is used at startup it would most likely be momentary. The third element is certainly not needed to idle.

[tolsen 630]

I think you guys are to quick to change out good parts and components. What was the outcome of low pressure fuel supply checks? Have you confirmed feed pump runs continuously. Any conclusion on the foreign metal bits?Can you graph rail pressure from start until engine stops? Are there any fault codes stored?Injectors will be fine since engine idles well for those short 10 seconds. Since practically everything seems to have been checked, I think the fault will be with feed pump power supply, rail pressure regulator or the engine control unit. Think you can rule out rail pressure sensor. Mine will start and idle normally with that one disconnected.

[Jeffbeck 0]

I think you guys are to quick to change out good parts and components. What was the outcome of low pressure fuel supply checks? Have you confirmed feed pump runs continuously. Any conclusion on the foreign metal bits?Can you graph rail pressure from start until engine stops? Are there any fault codes stored?Injectors will be fine since engine idles well for those short 10 seconds. Since practically everything seems to have been checked, I think the fault will be with feed pump power supply, rail pressure regulator or the engine control unit. Think you can rule out rail pressure sensor. Mine will start and idle normally with that one disconnected.

Tolsen, You are so right about being too quick on the draw for replacing parts. But its not my fault! ...I was trained as a mechanic at a dealership! . LOL!. Which clearly isn't paying off very well!I forgot to mention that it takes many cranks and is difficult to get the car started initially. The metal bits are from the previous fuel pump, the metal housing was bulging on the one side... but was pumping...With the new fuel pump, the low fuel supply is good. 35-40PSI at prime, crank, idle and stalling condition. Once the engine stops, the pressure falls off quickly. The feed is continuous. I don't have access to the scan tool to do a graphing function, but the pressure at cranking it 300BAR, at idle it is 280BAR, the pressure then rapidly drops off as it stalls out. As well, the injector quantity begins to adjust just before it stalls out. However, I noticed that the refresh rate of the information on the scan tool was delayed by approx 1.5-2 seconds (shows 0 rpm for a while even once the car is started.There is only one ecm fault for a glow plug failure (tested #1 as bad), but after fixing, it didn't make a difference to the running issue. I swapped the rail with the regulator and pressure sensor. I installed the engine control unit in another car and the other car ran good.I drained the fuel and got new fuel.I checked the connector on the back of the SAM for the fuel pump (have seen those get burnt and have intermittent problems). My next plan is to swap out the high pressure pump (I have a second smart to steal parts from), but the symptoms don't seem to indicate that as an issue, I just can't see anything else being left to do! Edited October 27, 2013 by Jeffbeck

[Jeffbeck 0]

Soooo.... I swapped out the high pressure pump and nothing different. The only thing left is electrical issues, I took the wiring loom apart that connected the injectors... all looked good...I am at a complete loss! I am unfamiliar with how to graph the hipressure pump, but will see if I can get it and post.

[tolsen 630]

I got my brain cells working on this strange problem assisted by ample drops of whisky.

[Jeffbeck 0]

We just had our first real snow of the year here (Calgary, Alberta, Canada), so I left the smart to soak in the hot tub. I began thinking about the injection timing, and how that relates to the ECM, which is signaled by the crank sensor. I have seen intermittent crank sensor problems but they typically get better with higher speeds (maybe with a few misses). Anything is possible, so I swapped the crank sensor over with high hopes.... but the same condition persists. Prolonged cranking, rough start, begins to idle normally, accelerator pedal hardly responsive, begins to shake alot then stalls out. I more thing to mention, the exhaust is very smoky at the startup, gets clean at the idle, then gets smokey at the end. Maybe good info, maybe just more confusion.

[CANMAN 23]

We just had our first real snow of the year here (Calgary, Alberta, Canada), so I left the smart to soak in the hot tub.

I don't think soaking the smart in the hot tub will fix your problem, how did you get it into the tub? Canman

[tolsen 630]

I don't think soaking the smart in the hot tub will fix your problem, how did you get it into the tub? Canman

Soaking my brain cells in whisky did not help much either. No solution so far but not giving up yet.

[Alex 21]

Could it be a similar problem to this? Unfortunately, no resolution yet. Mine still is doing it.

[tolsen 630]

I am loosing sleep over this problem. Does engine control unit get sufficient power? Perhaps check voltages at 12 volt supplies to it. How about simple things like condition of earth straps and earth points in engine bay?

[Jeffbeck 0]

NEW INFORMATION!!!I decided to try to keep the car running with by spraying brake clean in the intake when it was about to stall. I was able to nurse it to stay running past the 6-10 seconds then I was able to get it to stay running. I let it warm up to the first bubble then tried to rev it up, but it would start to shake and smoke when I did this. I added more engine load by turning on the seat heaters, defrost and blower motor.... this would practically stall out the engine. I was able to restart the smart, but it still wouldn't allow me to rev it up. The exhaust was thick, my eyes watered terribly. It was like it would begin to misfire as soon as throttle was applied, the best I could get was 12-1500rpm.

[Jeffbeck 0]

I am loosing sleep over this problem. Does engine control unit get sufficient power? Perhaps check voltages at 12 volt supplies to it. How about simple things like condition of earth straps and earth points in engine bay?

That is an interesting idea! I have already checked the grounds, but not the power supply. I will get the multimeter out and check into this!

[CANMAN 23]

Jeff,New idea, check to see if your turbo is siezed!Pull off the inlet hose you should be able to spin it with a finger.If turbo is good pull off the muffler/catalytic converter, it could be plugged.Canman

[houseofdiesel 9]

Thinking out loudAre all the fuel lines hooked up correctly? Seen it before...lots of pressure going to the wrong side, not sure it can be hooked up wrong in the smart. Even at the fuel filter which is possible to do. Pressures are one thing, quantity another.Is there an air intake restriction of some sort overlooked? Rats nest or collasped air intake tube, broken filter housing? You mentioned checking the exhaust and turbo with same results. It really sounds like something is restricted, seized turbo would still usually allow idling fine.Can you hook an led test light in with the various pumps/injectors to see electronically if all is powered up and staying powered up as it stalls (bridge wiring/put the light in series).You mentioned it runs on an outside fuel source (brake clean) so it cannot be timing chain issues, has to be fuel or air intake.Seized alternator or waterpump causing problems (not likely since you had engine rebuilt). Could something be broken on the crankshaft sensor ring or loose causing false timing readings (you replaced sensor, but what about the sensor pick up? If it has drifted off or slipped or worn down beyond range) Is there a cam sensor too to check?Have you gone through each output test with the star tool and tested everything one by one? Is it possible for the fuel rail to loose pressure through a faulty pressure relief valve?

[houseofdiesel 9]

When the engine was out and rebuilt, what did the timing chain parts (gear teeth) look like?

[scwmcan 0]

Just recalling I had an issue similar to this once when I cleaned the EGR, as I recall it was a combination of bad ground wires at the point above the intercooler, and the final clearing up was needing to adjust the insert in the EGR ( I had removed it from the housing for cleaning and had not gotten it back into alignment quite properly when I reinstalled it, caused problems with power, idling and stalling ( didn't even get it out of the driveway when trying to test it, and had to push it to get it back into its spot to work on it again). Just a thought in any case, may have nothing to do with your issue, but doesn't hurt to mention it.