Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Alex

Is there a practical 3 phase charger?

22 posts in this topic

My daily mileage frequently exceeds even optimistic range of the smart ED, I would need level 2 or better charging while I'm stopped to make it work. However virtually all my customers have 20 amp 208 or 240 volt three phase power readily available, within reach of a 25 meter cord. A conservatively derated 20A 208V 3phase circuit will deliver a usable 5 kW, but I know the smart ED onboard charger accepts only single phase input, requiring a 30amp circuit delivering 3.3 kW.

So is there available a 3 phase input charger suitable for either mounting in the car replacing the OEM, or as a portable suitcase compatible with charging level 3 style? (Not level 3 charge rate of course, that needs a lot more than 20 amps of 208/3phase, just level 3 style of supplying DC directly.)

In an even more perfect world it would be capable of detecting what it is plugged into which can be anything from 120 volts single to 480 3 phase, have the allowable amperage draw entered and charge away. I haven't seen any 3 phase chargers except the massive true level 3 units, generally 480V 3 phase and well over 50 amps input.

Any ideas out there? I would love an ED, If I can carry a 25 meter cable with a few short adaptor plugs I can access 5kW of useful power at many client sites, they would love the idea. I know it's technically feasible but can it be put together with available commercial products?

Edited by Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is not 208V single phase just one leg of a 3 phase cct? Perhaps this is just a plugging issue. ie if your clients plugs are all three phase could you not just use a wiring scheme that only picks up one phase?

Have you had a look at this site? http://store.openevse.com/ If you are thinking about something special the parts may be available there. Might even find someone who has done it.

There is also the juice box that is customizable. http://www.emotorwerks.com/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is the circuit capacity. Single phase you need a 50 amp breaker and wiring to get the same power you have from a 20 amp three phase. If you're lucky and have true 240 volt three phase instead of the more common 208 volt that same 20 amp will supply as much as a 60 amp single phase line. (A little more complicated than that, but pretty true.) The charger itself and the supply wiring will also be about half the weight.

Plus load balancing is important and you're not supposed to pull a high amperage load from a single leg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no practical three phase charger available in Canada. You can wire the Sun Country Highway chargers to use 208v off the single leg of a three phase. Charging will be noticeably slower, for obvious reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what I was starting to think. 5 kW charging makes it possible, much less just wouldn't work.

Okay, stop dreaming of an ED for a while longer! Maybe next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No Smart ED has 5 kW charging. They all have 3.3 kW. Why is this not going to work for you? It's a 5 hour charge from fumes to full... ever so slightly less if you use the 208v charger... It'd go from 3.3 kW to about 2.8kW. that hardly seems the end of the world...

What are you planning? You can pretty easily do 200 - 300 km in a day if you have guaranteed access to a Lvl 2 charger at each destination.

Edit: you're only actually pulling 16 amp, and need a 20 amp single phase circuit.

Edited by steveyfrac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My day frequently exceeds 200 km. I leave in a few minutes, my first stop is 70 km away today, I will be there perhaps 60-90 minutes, I then go about 20 km sideways to a small customer that likely won't have an accessible outlet and I don't know what next but there will be something. Close to 200 km before I'm home.

If an hours charge isn't half a "tank" I don't think it would be practical. Most of my high-mileage days include a visit to one of a few big regular customers that I can plug in at, but also small irregular ones that aren't worth it. No "guaranteed access at every destination", unfortunately.

A single leg of 208 would only supply about 2 kW in practical terms, I wouldn't want to rely on it being a 20 amp circuit in top condition with no other small loads, ample sized wires, short runs and all those factors, plus it is really bad practice to draw a heavy load off a single leg. I was thinking about a 3 phase input charger suitable for either mounting in the car replacing the OEM, or as a portable suitcase compatible with charging level 3 style. (Not level 3 charge rate of course, that needs a lot more than 20 amps of 208/3phase, just level 3 style of supplying DC directly.)

Much as I like the idea, I don't think it's practical yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen on some EV forums, people describe their charging in terms of "miles (of added range) per hour" or "kilometres per hour".

In my experience so far, the smart ED seems to charge at about 15 to 20 km/h.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd get the German optional 400V, 22kW charger option: "Ladezeit Schnellladung (400 V/22 kW) mit Wallbox" Full charge in an hour.

post-14781-0-45343700-1415326453_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My day is done! 190 km, I could have accessed 90 minutes 3 phase 208 charge after 50 km. (plans change, you know) Then about 80 km in two long and one short leg with no time for a charge at all between legs, another chance for 90 minutes charge time but only a 220V 30 amp single phase outlet was evident. (I looked) Then 55 km and another charge possibility, this one with a hot juicy 480 volt 20 amp 3 phase for 2 hours. Oh, what joy if only I had an ED that could suck full flow off that plug! Finally 15 km and I'm home.

It isn't workable without a multi-input charger capable of handling both single and three phase, only 208-240 voltage would be okay but able to handle 120 and 480 a huge bonus, and at least 30-40 amps when on single phase. A charger meeting those specs is technically feasible but I don't think it's available yet.

Maybe my other idea of a big magnet on the front is better. Latch onto a truck bumper on the highway, put it into maximum regen and watch that battery meter climb!

Edited by Alex
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just so we're clear... You are taking about modifying the car here. You know that right?

The actual inverter is built into the car. What we call chargers are actually just glorified safety switches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I get that. Please correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is as follows: Level 1 & 2 charging supplies AC to the onboard charger, with only control from the "charging station" being how much the actual charger is allowed to draw and when (if capable of time-of-use). Level 3 is different though, those chargers supply DC directly to the battery, with the onboard electronics merely telling it how much and how fast the batteries can take it. That would be the solution IF the right charger was available.

Battery management is essential of course, but that function can be separate from the high power handing part, I don't know if that control function is in the inverter or elsewhere in the smart.

In any case, as you can see from a typical day, the ED smart is not feasible for me without a way to accept (at the least) 20amp 208-240V 3 phase power directly from an uncontrolled feed, so I am left with the status quo. Which is not too shabby really!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, you've got the right of it. I was merely trying to point out that 'getting a bigger charger' is potentially more expensive than you might suspect, at least for right now. I think an add on 3.3 kW charger is on the order of $4000 + installation?

Hopefully one day we can get mobile level 3 chargers that you can do what you want. Or a large enough battery pack that it doesn't matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A BMW i3 with range extender engine would meet that distance spec. But since BC got rid of the EV rebate, I think they are all very hard to sell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 22kW option also has an onboard DC to DC charger, not an external charger. I don't believe it's even available for North America.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it's not available in North America. It's also designed for like... 400v 3 phase, which is pretty rare here, but apparently much less rare in Germany.

The other issue is that there aren't enough conductors in the SAE plug for three phase, if you want to use the on board charger. There are two power pins, a ground, and two control pins, so you'd have to do something else.

The modified SAE plug that includes DC fast charging only adds two large pins good for a few hundred amps of DC current, so it's unlikely we'll ever see a built in charger for three phase any time soon.

That being said, there's lots of 20 kW single phase chargers scattered around the country... so, that shouldn't hold us back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Noobie question: how long does it take for a full charge using level 1 charger?

If you're doing 8 amps, it's rated at 24 hours from 0%; 16 hours at 12amps. Level 2 / 240v is rated at 8 hours.

I just saw your car... were you here for service yesterday? :icon_smile:

Edited by twobytwo
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha yeah, it was in at MB Markham.

unfortunately, it was in for repairs. We've been having less than stellar experience with the reliability of the car... had the evap valve replaced, as well as new alternator and new belts which were failing after under 30k on the odo.

also no one at the dealership is able to hear the squealing brakes...I suspect that the brake pad has been rubbing on the rotor from day one LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Noobie question: how long does it take for a full charge using level 1 charger?

I charge overnight on the 110V EVSE (aka charger) that came with the car.

Typical recharge time is ... um ... doesn't matter, because I'm sleeping. ;-)

I commute 40km round trip, and the car is always fully charged in the morning when I leave for work.

My email notifications seem to align with a 8 hour recharge from half battery to full, and a half battery takes me comfortably 30km in the winter and 60km in the summer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Noobie question: how long does it take for a full charge using level 1 charger?

If you're doing 8 amps, it's rated at 24 hours from 0%; 16 hours at 12amps. Level 2 / 240v is rated at 8 hours.

I just saw your car... were you here for service yesterday? :icon_smile:

I have found that with L1 0 - 100% takes approx 16 hours. On L2 I can go from 0 - 100% in 4 hours - 45 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

    Chatbox
    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More