Can't get front wheels off!

[buzz271432 6]

So... today I was supposed to change to my winter rims. Simple enough eh?

Well the front lugs on BOTH tires were so tightly installed that not only could I not remove them with an impact wrench, but when I put a 4' pipe in my wrench... I stripped the bolt head.

Any ideas???

Heating them up to break off the heads "seems wrong" because I don't want to destroy my alloy wheels. I'd prefer to do it myself but I might need a mechanic...

Pissed off because I had the same problem 3 weeks ago (first time I took off the front wheels) and I couldn't believ how tight the previous owner had tightened them... but I set the torque at 90, a little above the 80 specified!! How the frig did they get so tight again??

Anyone else experience this?

Other than that.. Bibit has been running well... over 20K since I purchased her and she seems to be running well.

Bob

[tolsen 630]

You must be particularly clumsy. Only petit ladies struggle with wheel bolt. Put some anti seize grease on them next time.

[buzz271432 6]

LOL Tolsen... not so petite but clumsy yeah! I'm an office boy who is playin mechanic.

anti seize might work but it looks like the bolt head is "rounded". I put all my weight on a 3' pipe extending on my wrench... it moves but doesn't loosen. Can't get a 14mm on there so I gusee I need to drill out the bolt?

[tolsen 630]

Impact wrenches usually do not generate sufficient torque unless you have a good air supply.

Use a 1/2" drive 15 mm long hex socket. Turn with an extendable wheel brace or a breaker bar. Heat the socket red hot and let the heat soak into the bolt if it is still refusing.

[David_18 13]

Maybe with something like that ?

[Alex 21]

NO! Don't drill out the bolt. You couldn't remove the bolt in the first place, in fact you botched the job and now someone who does know what they're doing has to step in and rescue the situation. This proves you don't have the skill to drill out the bolt. Don't make it even worse!

Okay, I'm really sorry for those nasty words, really I am, but I had to get your attention. I have written $1000 parts down on service orders that would never have needed replacement if only they had read the sign:

ACHTUNG!

ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!

DAS MASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKEN. IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.

ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.

Drilling out bolts is tricky work. Chances are that if you had put it in the hands of a real mechanic a little heat, a little penetrant, some taps just right with a hammer (No! Don't grab a hammer! Not you!), and a few more tricks and those bolts would have been out undamaged. Now that it is rounded off (and in alloys!) drills may be required. Have you ever centered a pilot by eye, drilled straight "far enough", used a left hand bit a hair under the root diameter to drill just until the head pops loose, admired how well you did centre, then very carefully got a deep enough bite to turn the stud out? If so, go for it!

Edited November 9, 2014 by Alex

[tolsen 630]

I think those special stripped head sockets shown in post 5 are too fat and won't fit. Better using a long hex socket. You most likely used a worn or wrong size double hex.

Could you kindly post photos of your socket as seen from bolt head plus photo showing condition of the stripped head.

[buzz271432 6]

OUCH!!!

Alex: Although I did work for a few months last year in Austria and picked up "some German"... Google translate had some fun with your post. I assume I must be a "gefingerpoken dig" and "nonteknischen lookenpeeper"?? LOL. No worries... I truly appreciate your words.

Attention!

ALL tourists as NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!

THE MACHINE IS NOT FOR THE MIDDLE AND GEFINGERPOKEN DIG! ODERWISE IS EASY TO SNAP THE JUMPING PLANT, AND BLOWENFUSEN POPPENCORKEN WITH LACE Sparken. IS NOT FOR TRADES WITH STUPID heads. THE RUBBER CORNER SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN THE COTTON PICK IN THE POCKETS MUST handers.

ZO RELAX AND THE FLASHING slaps LICHTEN.

David_18: thanks for the post... I see CT has the Grip-Tite Bolt Remover... although I can't see a 15mm on the picture (will head there today)

For the record:

1. No I am not a mechanic (if you could not already tell from my previous posts) but I have been changing the oil, and wheels on all my cars each winter and spring for about 30 years now...never had a problem with a breaker bar and some applied "body weight" (190lbs)
2. I bought a 1/2" 15mm "long" impact socket from CT and used it successfully on the rear wheels along with a CT 12V Cigarette Lighter Impact wrench. So the problem is not the tool... maybe the "tool" using the tool :-)
3. I had already removed the front lugs a few weeks back using a breaker bar and they came off with some elbow grease (the previous owner had them on REAL tight). Perhaps I had done some damage before I had re-installed them with the Impact wrench. Although I did check them and clean them with WD40 and a brush before re-installing. I used the correct torque... this is a small 12V impact wrench with a digital read out people... I seriously doubt that it could generate so much torque!!
4. Tolsen... I will have another look today and post some pictures.
5. Probably gonna go the MD dealer this week. At a minimum - I will replace ALL the lug bolts! Hopefully no other major damage.

Thanks for everyone's help and I will keep you posted. I'm thinking of starting my own reality tv show... "Who is smarter than a Smart car?". LOL!

My wife is NOT impressed - I'm spending more and more time each weekend on Bibit instead of her and the kids. She fails to see the humour in it ....

Bob

[cruise_carter 1]

this is a small 12V impact wrench with a digital read out people... I seriously doubt that it could generate so much torque!!

1/2" manual calibrated. torque wrench is what I use. Canadian Tire puts. them on sale every so often.

Impact guns have there place, I have both electric and air powered, but they can do more damage than good sometime.

I suspect the impact gun torqued it a lot higher.

Even a dry bolt at 90 ft lbs would back out easily with hand tools

[tolsen 630]

You never tighten bolt connections with an impact gun unless you have the right torque bar. These are available in various torque settings.
Self inflicted problem it may seem.

Edited November 9, 2014 by tolsen

[dmoonen 54]

Ugh just bring it to a shop they'll take care of it for like 40ish bucks no head aches. You'll need proper tools to take it out so might aswell get a shop to do it IMO

[LooseLugNuts 557]

i have a set of reverse internal thread sockets for locking nuts ...saved me a few times when trying to remove seized wheels from scrap cars

night want to try that after applying penetrating oil and heat...a good hammer smack can work wonders too

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Pullers-And-Bearing/4-pc-1-2-in-dr-Locking-Wheel-Nut-Removers/8320954.p

[marchanna 115]

The cause of the bolts seizing again was probably because the threads were mashed to one side. I used to see this a lot on machine spindles from people repeatedly over torquing the arbors.

If you're not comfortable with doing the repair yourself, then definitely take it to a mechanic. That being said, some stud bolts have a hollow head, these would be easy to drill out to get the wheel off, but I would recommend using a depth gauge with it so you don't damage the hub by drilling too deep. After the head falls off (and the wheel removed) you should have a nice concentric concave cone on the end of the bold, in which if the bolt is still stuck you can drill out with a bit that is the same size or slightly smaller than the root diameter of the thread. If not seized you can use a screw extractor or notch it with your Dremmel and remove with a slotted screw driver - often after the head it off, the bolt is no longer seized.

Clean the threads in the hub well before reinstalling the wheels and make sure you replace all the studs - chances are the threads are mashed on all of them. I've never put anti-seize on the studs and have never had a problem with seizing so long as the correct torque has been used, but that's a matter of preference. I usually paint the face of the hub with anti-seize so the rim doesn't corrode to it - I have some silver coloured anti-seize I got from Princess Auto so it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.

[ianjay 6]

Never use an impact tool to tighten your wheel bolts. I don't care if it has a torque readout - when was it last recalibrated? Never, I'll wager. You use the torque wrench just to set the proper torque, resetting the wrench to zero after your job is finished.

Depending on how round the bolt has become, it might be possible to hammer a 14mm deep socket onto it. Let's face it though, you probably won't be using that 14mm socket again. Good luck, be patient, and don't let a tiny car's wheel bolt to get the better of you.

[smart65 28]

I was always told that wheel nuts/bolts should always be installed dry, without any lubrication. The reason given was that torque specs assume a dry thread. Any lubricant on the thread adds a mechanical advantage, causing the stud/bolt to be given a higher tension than intended, at the recommended torque wrench setting. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited November 11, 2014 by smart65

[tolsen 630]

I always apply copper grease to wheel bolts and studs. Tighten 10 Nm less than specified to compensate for reduced friction.

[Bessy 16]

Smart65, you are correct. When I go to write my Automotive Tech Exam (Certificate of Qualifiation) there's a question about that and 2 years of in class training has taught me to torque wheels dry. That's not to say Tolsen's idea is terrible, sound alright to me...but I would lose my lisence if I did it that way and a wheel came off and killed someone.

[marchanna 115]

Actually you could be charged with criminal negligence causing death. Mandatory prison time.

[RunSilent 15]

I'm with Tolsen. Unless you have a CALIBRATED, very high quality torque wrench, proper fastener design etc., the best you are going to get is +/-25% accuracy of preload on the fastener with a standard torque wrench of any description. I would much rather roll around knowing that there are no pits and inclusions developing on the threads, no galling or wear on the face of the threads to eat into the strength of the studs or wheel bolts. After 30 years and more than 1M km accumulated on my vehicles, I have never had problem in the salt encrusted area I live in. I wouldn't even begin to guess how much to reduce the torque by because of grease on the threads, so I have always used the car manufacturer's torque numbers. I would never trust any impact torque unit. I agree with Marchanna, the threads on the hub are probably toast, and should be chased with proper thread chasers (not taps-there is a big difference) at the very least, or you may need a whole new hub. I much prefer wheel studs and nuts over the german propensity for bolts.

[tolsen 630]

Where is the photo of the "stripped head" and socket used? I am having difficulty accepting that stripping head on a hex bolt is possible if tightened with a brand new 15 mm hex socket.

[buzz271432 6]

Tolsen:

Sorry for the delay. Only got around to the pictures today.

I hope they are clear enough and yes it was/is a brand new 15mm impact socket from CT along with a breaker bar, Releasall (lots of it) and a torch!

In the poop now. Heading to a mechanic later this week

[tolsen 630]

That one is surely knackered. Just drill it out starting with a drill as near as possible to hole in head of bolt, thereby you get your drill centred. There is not much else one can do when they are in that state.

[buzz271432 6]

Thanks Tolsen!

Never drilled out a bolt before... don't think I'm gonna try and learn now!! My daughter's boyfriend is a mechanic and he says he's going to come over and have a look for me.

I'm no a mechanic but in my "previous" life I owned a metal shop (Mind Over Metal) and we did some pretty cool things with metal. Last night I thought about reverse threading the hole in the center of the bolt, screwing in the appropriate bolt and using that to "torque" out the lug. OR maybe weld a stud on the Lug bolt? Unfortunately... I don't have the tools I need anymore even IF... I wanted to try it.

Brain farts from a "defeated" wanna be mechanic...

We woke up to snow on the ground today, and snow in the forecast for the next few days... Only have winters on in the back right now and I'm out of time with a 220KM daily commute. The line ups for winter tire installation is long these days... and I'm bringing in a "special". AAARRRGGHHH!

Should have brought it in a few weeks back when they were "Stuck". Hindsight is 20/20 eh?

[Silver 8]

I just got back from my indy. It cost me $20 to undo one seized bolt that I had rounded. He didn't have a 15 MM headed bolt so he put a 17 MM from a BMW that was a couple of MM too long to get me going. I'm looking into replacing all with M12 x 1.5, 25 MM with a 17 MM hex head without the hollow centre.

[tolsen 630]

Is there room for a standard 17 mm socket?