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Mercedes Benz committed to EVs

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Tesla has lots of really cool tech, but the actual superchargers aren't one of them. They're just big rectifiers, and they're sized to be proportional to the big rectifiers everyone else uses given the size of the battery packs they charge.

Tesla has innovated in this space. The Supercharger cabinet holds 12 (yes 12) of their 10kW chargers and these work in parallel. Those same 10kW chargers are also used in their cars to provide charging from AC. The amount of power draw for a Supercharger site is FAR greater than the power requirements of a single DCQC from any other vendor or standard. These Supercharger sites require massive pad transformers and infrastructure far in excess of the rather simple 25kW or even 50kW chargers which generally have a single or perhaps as much as two connectors available for charging, whereas Tesla sites are generally available for 6 cars simultaneously.

So : They have effectively moved the needle in a massive way, far more than any other vendor, and any statement that suggests this is not highly innovative and pushing to the maximum possible is not seeing it the way I do.

Roll out of competing technology to Tesla Supercharger will require serious innovation and time, this is not a mom/pop 25kW charger, these are sites that use more than a half megawatt of power at peak!

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When I was in a Tesla S I didn't like the shape of the seats or their relative lack of side support....nor did I like the absence of buttons and the massive screen on the console. The rear facing seats are a joke! On the good side, it's good-looking for an American car and quality inside seems pretty good, if not up to Audi or Porsche standards.

I gotta ask, if you were unimpressed with the Tesla, what lead you to your current car choices?

OK, what led me to my current car choices is I wanted something that would go over 600 km without stopping, preferably further (800+ in the case of the B 200 and Ford). I could be seriously interested in buying a Tesla in the future if they address their current ergonomic shortcomings and lowish range.

There is just something bad about using a touch screen where pressing "spot X" can have three or four different functions depending upon what screen you are in. That seems dangerous to me. With analogue switches and controls, I can use them without looking, knowing exactly what the switch does.

The Model S has you taking your eyes off the road to do some things on their big control screen. They need a voice activated control for most of these functions, like our Ford has for the telephony and audio system. If they did that and it was reliable, my objection would disappear.

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@SmartElectric that they charge more range per unit time is entirely a function of their larger battery packs. As with every other fast charging car on the market, the amount of current they can soak up is entirely dependent on pack size.

For the supper charger discussion... You realise that running many power supplies in parallel is an industry standard solution, right?

Which means their innovation is in putting multiple chargers in the same spot. Forgive me, but I'm just not impressed technically with: we can put more! In the same area and everything! Like, there were 10 high amperage AC chargers 20 minutes from me. That's cool and all, and useful, but not technically interesting.

I realise I'll never convince the converted, but almost anyone could build out their own 150kW charging network. That's not hard. Building a beautiful, fast, efficient, long range car? Getting all your software right? Making things like collision avoidance working? Making a 4 door sedan launch harder than an Aventador? These are all really really hard to get right, and Tesla has nailed them all. I'm not saying nothing the they have done is interesting, I'm saying that building a bunch of power supplies isn't all that challenging.

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When I was in a Tesla S I didn't like the shape of the seats or their relative lack of side support....nor did I like the absence of buttons and the massive screen on the console. The rear facing seats are a joke! On the good side, it's good-looking for an American car and quality inside seems pretty good, if not up to Audi or Porsche standards.

I gotta ask, if you were unimpressed with the Tesla, what lead you to your current car choices?

OK, what led me to my current car choices is I wanted something that would go over 600 km without stopping, preferably further (800+ in the case of the B 200 and Ford). I could be seriously interested in buying a Tesla in the future if they address their current ergonomic shortcomings and lowish range.

There is just something bad about using a touch screen where pressing "spot X" can have three or four different functions depending upon what screen you are in. That seems dangerous to me. With analogue switches and controls, I can use them without looking, knowing exactly what the switch does.

The Model S has you taking your eyes off the road to do some things on their big control screen. They need a voice activated control for most of these functions, like our Ford has for the telephony and audio system. If they did that and it was reliable, my objection would disappear.

I cant tell you how bad my own grammatical errors bug me :) I hadn't considered that about the touch screen. Is it programmed to only let you toggle between certain options while driving? I know Ford's Sync won't let you connect new devices etc while driving.

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@SmartElectric that they charge more range per unit time is entirely a function of their larger battery packs. As with every other fast charging car on the market, the amount of current they can soak up is entirely dependent on pack size.

For the supper charger discussion... You realise that running many power supplies in parallel is an industry standard solution, right?

Which means their innovation is in putting multiple chargers in the same spot. Forgive me, but I'm just not impressed technically with: we can put more! In the same area and everything! Like, there were 10 high amperage AC chargers 20 minutes from me. That's cool and all, and useful, but not technically interesting.

I realise I'll never convince the converted, but almost anyone could build out their own 150kW charging network. That's not hard. Building a beautiful, fast, efficient, long range car? Getting all your software right? Making things like collision avoidance working? Making a 4 door sedan launch harder than an Aventador? These are all really really hard to get right, and Tesla has nailed them all. I'm not saying nothing the they have done is interesting, I'm saying that building a bunch of power supplies isn't all that challenging.

I totally agree. Building a network of chargers isn't a huge feat technologically, but they are the only ones who have even made a step in that direction so far. For me its the list of things you listed previous that make it awesome. An electric sedan that motor trend describes as "not so much accelerating, your being suctioned through space. You used to be there, now you're here". That sounds like a thrill to me.

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@SmartElectric that they charge more range per unit time is entirely a function of their larger battery packs. As with every other fast charging car on the market, the amount of current they can soak up is entirely dependent on pack size.

For the supper charger discussion... You realise that running many power supplies in parallel is an industry standard solution, right?

Which means their innovation is in putting multiple chargers in the same spot. Forgive me, but I'm just not impressed technically with: we can put more! In the same area and everything! Like, there were 10 high amperage AC chargers 20 minutes from me. That's cool and all, and useful, but not technically interesting.

I realise I'll never convince the converted, but almost anyone could build out their own 150kW charging network. That's not hard. Building a beautiful, fast, efficient, long range car? Getting all your software right? Making things like collision avoidance working? Making a 4 door sedan launch harder than an Aventador? These are all really really hard to get right, and Tesla has nailed them all. I'm not saying nothing the they have done is interesting, I'm saying that building a bunch of power supplies isn't all that challenging.

I totally agree. Building a network of chargers isn't a huge feat technologically, but they are the only ones who have even made a step in that direction so far. For me its the list of things you listed previous that make it awesome. An electric sedan that motor trend describes as "not so much accelerating, your being suctioned through space. You used to be there, now you're here". That sounds like a thrill to me.

They aren't the only automaker to roll out a DC fast charge network. BMW is doing it, and so is Kia. In addition, they're not even the network with the most plugs. ChaDeMo has 700 chargers in the U.S., while there are only like 100 superchargers. Albeit, some of those super charger stations have a lot of plugs, so perhaps it's a wash. Their main claim to fame though, is their power output, which, as I've said, isn't really a big deal. The only reason no one else has built a 135 kW charger is that no one else has a big enough battery pack to be able to use it. Even then, the next biggest competitor is 100 kW ChaDeMo plugs in Europe...

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So does this mean ANY electric can travel across the states using fast charge public stations?

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Most of the non-tesla DC chargers are focused around the west coast. Because the battery packs are smaller, but still take the same amount of time to charge, travelling cross country would truly be an ordeal. You'd be driving for 2 hours for every hour of charging.

That being said, people have done 1500 mile road trips with Nissan Leafs, over on the west coast.

If we want truly cross country capable cars, they NEED 250 mile ranges. 5 hours of driving for an hour of charging is reasonable, even comfortable. driving 100 miles before stopping to charge for an hour is just kinda dodgy.

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Only 250 miles is more likely to be 3.5 or 4 hour drive on an Interstate or BC freeway (120 km/h limit). Stopping every 2 hours for a one hour charge would be ridiculous unless you are so hardcore that you don't care about time!

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Elon Musk has never been involved in a "staged rapid battery exchange demonstration." I believe you're mistaking him for Shai Agassi and (the now-defunct) Better Place.

Yes, yes. It's all hype and showmanship and snake oil. The cars may be incredible, the company eschews the GM car sales instruction manual, but obviously they are hyped up, trumped up junk compared to the $50000 semi-electric Cavalier from Government Motors.

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@Francesco: I'm struggling to make sense of your post, or your hate for the volt... If that isn't sarcasm? I... ya.. I'm lost friend.

@Mike, I rarely actually manage to average 65 MPH over many hours of highway driving if you aren't on the prairies. You hit construction for 10 minutes, or stop for a bathroom break, or see something cool, etc... 50 MPH is about average for my real progress across the country over time. You may be a lot more hardcore than me.

--Steve

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No. I'm not making an error about the staged battery replacement. Good old Elon himself was on the stage. They actually did make the battery change and drove the car off. But it had not been connected properly and did not truthfully represent what they were purporting to exhibit. Real dog and pony show.

Your shrewd, stinging reference to the hyped up semi-electric cavalier that I drive really cut me to the quick, as the wizard would have said. You got me. A fine example of real knuckle dragging ignorance.

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Elon Musk has never been involved in a "staged rapid battery exchange demonstration." I believe you're mistaking him for Shai Agassi and (the now-defunct) Better Place.

Yes, yes. It's all hype and showmanship and snake oil. The cars may be incredible, the company eschews the GM car sales instruction manual, but obviously they are hyped up, trumped up junk compared to the $50000 semi-electric Cavalier from Government Motors.

Here Francesco: http://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/batteryswap

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And some more news on it http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/15/teslas-battery-swap-stations-december/

I think everyone is right but are overlooking the type of vehicle NOT just the fuel/energy source. Heck your comparing a micro car to a sedan that the only thing they have in common is they are electric.

Its like saying my 450 cdi smart gets 500km per tank and my Jetta tdi gets 1000km. Next question: Can I make my 450 smart get more range well wouldn't you know it there's a 33L tank I can get.

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Why do you say that? They've got a big battery pack factory, and they make two electric cars both for general sale.

That's as good as anyone right now...

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They've got 3 actually. The smart, the B class, and the SLS AMG.....but its about $600k (or 4 Teslas if we're keeping track) :)

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A fine example of real knuckle dragging ignorance.

Please forgive me. I am truly sorry I compared the Volt to the Cavalier, when I should have called it a "semi-electric Cruze with less interior space or appeal." Yes, you're correct. GM is well known for high quality and advancing the state of the art, and denying that their cars are plagued with serious issues leading to at least a dozen deaths (going so far as to hide their knowledge of the faulty parts in some 30 million cars worldwide for well over a decade).

As an aside, I've honestly never seen a Volt in cold weather without fumes coming from the tailpipe. I realize it could just be lazy braggart owners driving it differently from the way GM intended, or is it by design? For a long time GM told us the engine is not mechanically linked to the wheels and yet when production models hit the roads it was revealed that indeed, the little four-banger can definitely engage the drivetrain to assist with propulsion. Great innovation by the engineers, but hardly transparent marketing by GM.

But may I ask, why all the hatred for Tesla Motors and Elon Musk?

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@Mike, I rarely actually manage to average 65 MPH over many hours of highway driving if you aren't on the prairies. You hit construction for 10 minutes, or stop for a bathroom break, or see something cool, etc... 50 MPH is about average for my real progress across the country over time. You may be a lot more hardcore than me.

Maybe. When we drove the white cdi back to BC from Toronto, a typical on the road average speed between fills - including a break halfway - was 115 km/h according to my ScanGauge, on US Interstates. That was in February!

In the B 200, when we are driving to Penticton every summer (400 km), the average is always about 120 km/h including a stop at Merritt.

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So, you're constantly driving 130?? because a 15 minute stop in a 3 hour, 400 km trip would lower your average from 133 km/hr to 123 km/hr...

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Hopefully the North American 453 electric drive will offer the fast charger and the heat pump! I'm stuck in traffic it's -20° out and my engine temperature right now is 37°C. Fekkin freezing. If I didn't have heated seats, I'd have abandoned the car in the middle of the highway about an hour ago!

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On the trip back from Toronto in the winter, once the snow was not on the road (leaving Wisconsin), the smart was at 125-135 km/h all the time. In the snow I was usually at 100-110.

I usually would drive 140 (indicated, really, 135) in a 120 zone that we have here in BC. In the USA, 130-135 indicated depending upon the State.

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Why do you say that? They've got a big battery pack factory, and they make two electric cars both for general sale.

That's as good as anyone right now...

1. Correct they own their own pack manufacturing which to date supplies the Smart ED fleet. Smart electric drive is only 10,000 copies sold per year, even though demand is greater due to being the lowest price pure electric car available.

2. The B Class ED drive train and battery are both completely done by Tesla, even though #1 exists. Not much commitment there, I suspect MB just could not get beaten by BMW i3, so they quickly put something out to compete.

3. They are shutting down their cell manufacturing which produces the cells for the Smart ED battery pack in 2016, and will be switching to an outside cell manufacturer, chiefly because they realized after burning through a lot of $$ that they didn't need to make their own cells to compete.

So yes, they've shown some commitment, but nothing like Nissan, GM and Tesla, but perhaps more than Ford and the rest. You do have a point.

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A few addendums to your points:

1) They are also supplying the batteries for the E-class, and S-Class hybrids

2) The original Smart ED was also done by Tesla, After a year or two they switched the drivetrain to their own design. I think they're heavily leaning on Tesla expertise for the original design for sure though

3) This is no longer true. They were considering it, but they've since decided to invest an additional 100 million in their plant. Source: http://www.just-auto.com/news/daimler-tops-off-li-ion-battery-plant-expansion_id153188.aspx

100 million is no gigafactory, but it's a lot more than GM or Nissan own...

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