alternator,starter and thermostat access panel

[shcubbebah 6]

Hello all, I have been trying to find the easiest method of getting to the rear side of the engine on my .8 dsl fortwo.

I have 3 key components I want to always have access to. my starter alternator and thermostat. I have done some research on locations and plan to create a hatch door to give me immediate access to them most likely with hinge style or grove style (such as the engine cover panel) my question is has anyone ever attempted this mod to the body of the vehicle? also if I were to cut away a portion of the cell shown in my picture(general area) is there any ideas of ways I can have it easily removable and still create an airtight seal for sound when reinstalled? I have access to welder and can form sheet metal. tomorrow I am going to begin the cut. also the second picture is showing key strength points in red and I will be cutting just under the main support in between existing engine access hole and my cutting area. I am planning on swapping alternators in summer as bearing in mine is on its way out the door. I am also wanting to attempt tolson's restrictor mod to gain some heat in my -32 celcius world I live in. thank in advance!

[darren 192]

I believe that part of the Tridion structure is a safety feature. The safety cell is designed such that in the event of a rear-end collision, the engine and transmission are deflected downward, away from the passenger compartment, rather than pushing directly forward into the cabin.

That sloping wall between the seats and the engine bay seems to be the main component of this safety structure. Cutting into it could seriously compromise its strength and integrity, possibly preventing it from functioning as designed in the event of a collision. I wouldn't do it, personally. There are too many risks (and potential liability issues) when you start cutting holes in a vehicle's structure.

[Jerzy 8]

Hi there

I was thinking of making access to the engine for some time. When you cut a hole and reinstall a hatch door, the strenght is still there. I don't think the engine will fly through that " opening" in case of a rear collision. I personally will do it in the near future. If you are first to do it, please post some pictures. Jerzy

[MikeT 744]

So, are you are both engineers who have done a thorough finite elements analysis and other engineering work on the tridion?

If not, it is not a good idea at all, especially in such a small car with minimal structure, for reasons previously stated.

If you have a toothache, does the dentist cut off the top of your skull to get at the tooth?

[Francesco 71]

Mike, how many alternators, starters and thermostats have you replaced in 400 000+ km of smart ownership?

The amount of work, effort and engineering involved in cutting another engine access hatch behind the seats -- regardless of such a mod's compromise of the tridion structure -- is exponentially more than the effort to drop the engine once every 150 000 km or so to replace buried components. Heck, just gutting the interior every time you need to work on the engine would be more effort than dropping the engine!

[CANMAN 23]

Hi Shcubbebah,

Your idea is definitely interesting, thinking outside the box.

But I don't think you will gain anything by doing it, the front of the engine presses tight to the firewall, you won't have any room to manipulate any of the components you are trying to access.

In the case of the alternator you still have to jack the car, remove the wheel, wheel arch liner, AC belt and alternator belt. The only improved access would be to the electrical connector and top mounting bolt, I don't think you could remove the alternator thru your proposed hole.

To access the starter you would have to remove the alternator first, but you still have the problem of accessing the mounting bolts which are in the intercooler scoop.

Like the 450 1/2 bonnet mod, it's a great idea but of limited practical value.

Canman

Edited February 24, 2015 by CANMAN

[shcubbebah 6]

First off just placed my order for tolsons restrictor plug!!!

very excited!

All are valid points for rear end crash design it does seem as the engine would be deflected. however it is only a small portion of the hole being cut. my picture I made actually shows I make a cut too large I was not planning on cutting the edged piece at top of slope, and the bottom to retain strength of the body(in the red in second picture) as they are the mainstructure components of the rear end in between is merely sheet metal. and I would see that if I left access panel off and had and accident I would run into an issue, however just as jerzy mentions when panel is reinstalled

the strength is still there. I will definitely post pictures of my progress.

[Huronlad 186]

IIRC fordnut71 cut just the sheet metal for access to the alternator from the inside of the vehicle. I recall one or two other members on here doing the same. Fairly certain fordnut71 determined the work to create the access point was well worth it. I do not recall anymore of the specifics but it will be on the forum somewhere.

[shcubbebah 6]

ok everyone I managed to complete the task. I have many pictures of my progress so I will make several posts so bare with me.

I made some cuts in and around the seats in the carpet to make it easily removed without seat removal. will also assist when working under hood anyways as the carpet flap tends to get in the way.

I then marked my lines and cut the opening

once I removed the panel I had my insulation in my way so I just cut it out.

[shcubbebah 6]

after I removed the insulation I quickly realized my hole wasn't large enough In the bottom portion to provide adequate clearance to remove the alternator.

I then cut my hole larger and was left with two pieces. ( a mistake on my part for not measuring properly.

I now had all the room I need to access alternator.

here is the piece welded.I also began adding mounting brackets

I drilled some holes just outside the perimeter of the opening and welded a bolt facing inward to the body( lower right of picture) and have it act as a stud.

make sure you remove your insulation before this step. also I made plates on the top to help the panel seat in the correct spot (top)

these are all final studs and brackets sorry my skills in paint aren't sufficient

[shcubbebah 6]

I now painted the exposed edges to prevent corrosion on the car silver and thought I might go with a wild green color for the access panel. I fitted it in places and its is a perfect fit.

the only addition I want to make is ad weather stripping to edges of the car itself to remove jagged edges and create a seal when panel is in place, however I was unable to locate the slip on type that you would see

around the door on your vehicle.

as you may see there is a minimal gap around the panel. that should be fixed by just adding the weather stripping.

I then placed my carpet back in the vehicle and went for a test drive and even with out a seal the carpet is enough to block all engine noise. and its just as quiet as before the mod.

I hope I might inspire others to do the same. it was a very easy job if you have a die grinder with a cut off wheel at access and a welder. took me 3 hours total time once I came up with the design.

which I believe was a great investment for my time for the outcome.

let me know if there are any questions I may not have answered I tried to be very though out.

I am now just awaiting postage of my restrictor that I will be installing and will have immediate access to the V-pipe needed to install.

[CANMAN 23]

For a seal you can buy vacuum hose at Canadian Tire then slit it lengthwise and install over the edge.

You can probably glue the insulation back onto the outside of your hatch using contact cement.

It's great that you shared your mod with everyone so we can all benefit from your experience.

However for every helpful suggestion there will also be criticism.

If I were ever to do this mod, I would lower the engine and remove the insulation first, you are lucky the sparks from the grinder didn't set the insulation on fire, and your car and garage.

Canman

[tolsen 630]

Great mod. Automotive window sealant mastic will suffice. Doubt you will need to make use of the hatch more than once a year at the most.

[Jerzy 8]

This is what I am talking about, the world belongs to the brave! Great instructions and photos. Thanks a lot. Even if you use it once a year it gives you a peace of mind - just imagine to change an alternator in -20C, piece of cake.

Once I thought my alternator was gone. I spend a lot of time just to discover that a wire on top was rusted. To put it back was a challenge.

[shcubbebah 6]

I agree with canman I would make sure the insulation is removed before any cuts were made. I actually used another piece of metal ( an old license plate) to separate the insulation from the metal being cut or welded to prevent a fire. however a more profession approach would be to just remove it before hand. once I receive my restrictor I will hunt down my weather stripping and post picture of that aswell.

Edited February 25, 2015 by shcubbebah

[Francesco 71]

While I appreciate the "science experiment" aspect to it, I still don't get it.

[tolsen 630]

A plate nibbler ought to make the cutting operation sufficiently safe.

[dguy 22]

Regarding the concern of accidentally setting the engine compartment insulation on fire when cutting - does anyone know what the material is comprised of? It would seem odd to me, if not outright foolish, to use an inflammable material for engine compartment insulation.

[shcubbebah 6]

not sure what the material is made from however it seems fairly combustible. ive decided to take Canman's advice and go with the vacuum tube as my seal. I work at an auto parts store so getting my hands on some was no issue.

Edited February 26, 2015 by shcubbebah

[shcubbebah 6]

While I appreciate the "science experiment" aspect to it, I still don't get it.

the main roll of this access panel is to be able to remove my alternator without lowering engine to allow clearance. I do believe I even have access to both the mounting bolts of the alternator from top perspective (the lower will be by feel but is doable) another benefit is access to the v-pipe for restrictor mod. as for the thermostat itself and starter my hopes may be crushed slightly as I have the feeling I will still need to lower to get at them both. next time I open it up to install my seal and perform my restrictor install I will take some more pictures facing upward toward thermostat once coolant hoses are removed I may have slightly more access to thermostat mount bolts. but cannot be certain as I haven't attempted yet.

[Francesco 71]

No I get the "goal" of it, I just don't see the logic behind it. In the amount of time it took to think through and perform the mod, you could have lowered the cradle and swapped the alternator, starter cable, thermostat and V-piece three times over. I can do the "cheat" lowering (fq101 or Evilution style) in about 15 minutes. Lowering it on bolts like the dealership? About 30 minutes, tops.

[shcubbebah 6]

that is also where we differ. I have never attempted to lower the engine. I am sure it is not a problem. however had a few days off work and wanted something to do and this was an idea I had in my head so I decided I would take a stab at it. I do think I should take a moment to study the lowering procedure as I haven't even looked underneath to locate the mount bolts.

I guess I am just used to the typical design of a vehicle to just open hood and be able to access everything in seconds. as I have only been a smart owner for a year now.

[Francesco 71]

Most things in the smart's engine bay are actually easier to get at once you learn the procedures than they are in some more "normal" cars like the Beetle TDI. I had a Beetle TDI in distress come to me on Wednesday and after a couple of minutes of struggling to get at the usual culprits, I gave up and directed my friend to go see a nearby VW specialist garage.

[tolsen 630]

I am more concerned about the weld quality.

[Henry 40]

What a neat mod.

I have concerns about the reduced strength of the triden after your mod. I do not think there is a safety concern but only a weekend state may allow your smart to be more susceptible to what my car experienced. I had my daughters hit a rock at the side of the road that actually twisted the car, un modded. Taking away metal, and the strength it provides, needs to be replaced by a doubler of the next gage material and affixed to the car with a solid form of of fastener, ether welding rivets or bolts. My poor Henry was finally written off after a very minor accident because they knew the car was bent. I do hope you fare better.

Alan