stickman007

My turn to have a no start on the smart - Running Now!

80 posts in this topic

One of the cars I picked up last fall had the exact same issue. Would turn over at speed, and would fire on ether (yeah yeah...), but just would not inject fuel and go, despite having pressure at the injectors. I also decided it must be low compression. Good car otherwise though so I'm hoping to confirm with a compression test then pull and rebuild, refresh, and get her going again this summer.

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If you want rid of it, donate it and get a tax receipt. Painless...

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Have you tried wetting cylinders in oil to restore compression?

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No, but I just remembered you mentioning about wetting the cylinder after I posted...will try that next Monday. So only on cylinder#1 is enough? I will be removing the intake manifold rather than drilling a hole. Thanks for reminding me the idea! Would fuel also be a problem? Its been sitting on 3/4 tank for about 7-8months.

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Before spending more time and/or money I would take it to a Smart shop and pay 1 hour fee to have it diagnosed properly. If you have CAA they'll tow it there for free.

If you don't have CAA find a friend that has a membership and have them do it for you.

For about $100 you should then know what the problem is, and be able to make the correct decision.

If you part it out you will be able to make $1,500 out of it, at least.

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Turning engine by hand will tell you whether engine has compression. Easier if you also have running engine so you can compare.

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Turning by hand will provide insight if the compression is between 50-100psi, but if the difference is 300-400psi required to ignite, not sure if turning by hand would tell me anything. If compression is 0-50psi, that would explain why cranking rpm is over 200. But In my experience, it doesn't sound like low compression cranking. I'm guessing it's between 200-300psi right in the zone where it won't start, but still has compression. Wetting cylinders make a lot of sense.

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Actually, I do have a run in smart at the school...I will go compare the resistant on Monday then. I don't think it'll tell me anything, but it's worth a try.

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What is main hurdle preventing you from wetting cylinders in penetration oil? Easiest way is removing hose bend between inlet manifold and egr valve. Crank engine in short bursts whilst spraying penetration oil into manifold. Assistant required.

Any conclusions after turning engine by hand?

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Nothing much was preventing me from trying wetting cylinder, just time and the fear of hydrolocking.

So, cranking by hand was easier compared with the other smart. Also spraying inlet manifold with penetrating oil while cranking (tried multiple times) didn't seem to be enough to start it. It kicked once, but never repeated itself again. I'm pretty sure its compression loss that's preventing start now. Not sure of how it happened since it ran without any issues the last time I drove it, and parked it there.

Still not sure what to do with the smart now, I guess I'll either wait for an engine to pop up on kijiji or something or sell it as is. I suppose I can part it, but that'll take forever.

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Next step I would do is remove rocker cover and inspect valve gear whilst turning. If all including valve timing is OK, proceed to start engine by roll starting - pulling with another car.

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Lol...I'm ready to give up and you guys just keep going! I guess why not. The rocker arms/lifters have been known to fail. There is always the possibility that faster cranking will generate enough compression. Thanks tolsen!

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Exact same results I got in my efforts to start the car. I had removed the injectors though and used a little motor oil directly into the cylinder.

Maybe you guys know the answer to this. Does the car "remember" where cyl 1 TDC on the compression stroke is normally? Does it forget it when the battery is disconnected? Or does it "find" it every time you crank the car over?

I'll be very interested to know if you can get it fired by tow.

Edited by booneylander

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I believe engine synchronises number one cylinder on compression stroke each time engine starts. Of course 50% chance of getting it right. Compression stroke is detected by negative angular acceleration when on compression stroke.

We do not know if engine will attempt synchronising on any of the other two cylinders if it fails on number one. Can be checked by removing injector or glow plug on a good working engine. Any volunteers?

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So I finally got a chance to do a quick compression test and here's the result:

cyl#1 0psi

cyl#2 ~100psi

cyl#3 ~100psi

I didn't have any oil around to drop in and seal the rings in hopes of getting a bit more compression. Any tips/ideas? Should I drop the engine and check the cylinder head? or should I just part it? This is the 1st time I've seen an engine with compression issue when it was running when parked. The only guess I can think of is something is wrong in the cylinder head...maybe valves aren't closing? stuck? or broken/bent rockers.

I'm not in a hurry or need to sell, but it has been awhile and I don't see myself having the time to fix it.

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I would think ''stuck'' valve.

Remove valve cover, hand crank the engine with an E18 socket, and then tap with a ''small'' hammer on the #1 rockers.

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My little beast is running again!!!

So...I cannot confirmed why though.

As smart142 said, I dropped the engine, removed the cover to inspect and tap the rockers. No changes to the compression.

I also tried tolsen suggestion to wet the cylinder spraying a bit of penetrating oil into the cylinder. No changes to the compression again.

So I figured it must be something crude preventing the valves to seat properly, or burnt valves, after all I got 0psi on cylinder #1. I wanted to confirm whether it was intake or exhaust, so I came up with a very crude method of finding out. I dumped about 50mL of 10w40 into each cylinder I had lying around. I noted that it held oil when the intake valve was closed. I started the crank the engine by hand. I reasoned that it shouldn't hydrolock if I had very low compression. If oil is coming out of the exhaust/intake, then that's where the problem lies. Didn't want to remove the head to inspect.
After a few cycle, it hydrolocked all of a sudden! So Long story short, I bolted everything back together, removed the glow plugs and pushed out the remaining oil, and the darn thing fired up after a few tries.

Do this means that either the penetrating oil was too thin or didn't get to the rings? Or whatever was blocking the valves from seating properly got pushed cleaned?

After driving for 20mins, it now runs/starts like before. Sounds normal and no smoke.

Anywho, it's alive! Guess this is a happy ending?

Izzy

Edited by stickman007
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I missed this post.  Must have been away fishing at the time.

 

So no firm conclusion other than that some oil and plenty of persistence sorted it?

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if i remember right the engine is fairly slanted...and the piston has a combustion pocket

 

perhaps the penetrating oil stayed in the pocket or only got part of the rings...and the extra oil was able to get around to all ring surfaces

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I think your slanted engine theory is most possible...10w40 is much thicker than penetrating oil, maybe together it was enough to seal the rings? What doesn't make sense would be why it ran fine afterwards. Didn't bother to remove everything and do proper compression test.

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Is engine still running fine?

and

what had caused engine initially to fail?  Had it sat for a long time like over winter?

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Sold the car not long after I got it started. Haven't heard any complains from the now owner.

 

It sat outside for the winter for about 3 months.

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I have seen many engines having developed low compression due to long time storage.  Gravity drains oil back to sump and remaining oil on cylinders dries out.  Valves may stick too.  End result is low compression and difficult or no start.

 

To restore compression, my method is always to introduce a measured amount of oil to each cylinder and turn engine over by hand initially.  Easy on a petrol engine - more time consuming on a diesel unless one injects or sprays oil in through inlet duct whilst turning engine over.

 

A complication with our common rail diesel is no fuel will be injected before engine is synchronized.  Our OM660 engine does not have any cam shaft position sensor.  Engine control unit therefore synchronizes engine timing based on variations in engine angular velocity and acceleration, as far as I know on number one cylinder.   Engine may not synchronize if compression on number one is low.  

 

 

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I have a diesel Case 1845C Uniloader that is an older model built in 1986 but it runs great. When I first got it I had trouble starting it in the winter. I noticed newer models had an injector spray can of Quick start attached with a hose that ran into the intake manifold. A quick press  on the can before starting induced the primary start and the motor started up on the coldest day -30 C!

I've heard of so many negative issues regarding this method but I've been doing this for over 30 years since I've had this baby.Never had any issues. I use it to plow my yard and driveway.

I use the WD40 spray can straw from the Quick Start Can that runs into a micro hose that travels into the rubber plenum of the intake manifold. I drilled a hole into the  plenum just large enough to shove a small piece of the straw where the micro hose is attached.

What about spraying into the plenum a mixer of (varsol) or diesel with engine oil to lubricate the cylinders prior to the initial start?  This could be a easy solution to freeing up sticky rings and increasing compression after the motor has been sitting for a while. A lot simpler than removing injectors and pouring oil into the cylinders. Once completed just remove the straw and replace it with a stainless steel screw to close the opening

straw.png

case.png

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Drilling a hole in inlet manifold was suggested nearly two years ago in post 37. 

 

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