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MikeT

Cranking without start.

22 posts in this topic

Question for the experts: for the past few months my Canada 1 has occasionally cranked excessively when starting, without catching or even coughing. I had been using the glow plugs excessively (long after the light went out) not that the engine needed it...even though I t is rarely cold here and the garage is warm in winter.

So the battery was about 6 years old and I bought another, thinking maybe the one installed in 2009 in Ontario was getting weak. But since then, the car has done it a couple more times, even though I am starting it right after the glow plug light goes out and not waiting longer.

This morning the car was in the garage at 14 C and it did the cranking without starting thing, I stopped it, turned the radio off and tried again and this time the engine started. When it is running, the engine is strong, with no evidence that it is low on compression or anything like that.

I thought maybe someone would have some suggestions.

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if it were me id be checking that brown connector on the back of the brain box (cant remember what you guys call that)

my friends cabrio had the same symptoms and i had to wire in an external relay for the fuel pump

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The fuel pump already has an external relay. That was done a few years ago.

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...but I guess there could be a problem with that too. The power is taken off the SAM power supply rather than a straight jump from the battery, hmmmm

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Can you hear the fuel pump running before you try to start?

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You know, I have never been able to hear the fuel pump. Maybe I should try.

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Mike,

How many kilometres on the car?

I am thinking the crank position sensor, which as you know is a bitch to get at.

Canman

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100800 more or less. I was thinking that too....do they leave an OBD II code?

After work and before servicing and changing the chain on my bicycle I pulled the SAM down to have a boo. All looks good so far as I can see. I heard the fuel pump after turning the fan, radio etc off. But this issue is intermittent so I will listen for the fuel pump the next time it cranks without starting.

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Welcome to the no start club! (I hope you'll never fully become a member!)

I'm a little stumped on why mine wouldn't start, but haven't had much time to do much diagnostic tests...

Crank Sensor do not leave OBDII code as far as I know

Lift pump is running strong on mine still no catch/start

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I am happy to announce I am no club member yet, touch wood.

You have to be systematic and thorough when fault finding these no start problems.

Record each step for later.

Checking whether fuel feed pump runs is not enough. Measure pump delivery pressure and confirm around 2.5 bar or whatever the spec is.

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Well it is not really critical as I don't rely on this car for daily use, plus it happens rarely up to now.

One step at a time, the next time it does this I will listen for the fuel pump and if it is working, at some point I will hand the car off to smart Nanaimo or Victoria for repair, because these dealers are really very good with this sort of thing.

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Mine used to do that too intermittently about 4-5 years ago and I never touched it but I haven't worked for 3 years and don't fuel where I used to, so I'm now wondering if it might be fuel quality related, I also moved since and I haven't fuel at Shell since I moved and I know I was getting 75-100 km less on that Shell fuel, now I'm wondering if older fuel could be everyone's problem???

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Hmm, that's worth considering too. I fueled up at an unknown Chevron up-Island last weekend.

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Hmm maybe. I had the fuel filter changed at 6000 km in 2010 but not since. I drove the car yesterday and it was fine. I will have to wait until it happens again to try some things out.

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On European diesel 450 Smart cars, fuel filters only need be changed when they leak. I've never seen one needing changing because too much restriction. Leakage is due to corrosion because filter is exposed to the elements. Canadian Smarts have a much larger fuel filter. I cannot see why those need replacing unless leaking or contaminated and clogged by bad fuel.

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What I meant by poor fuel quality is not about dirt in the fuel, I had a bad fuel tank that gave me wrong reading on the fuel gauge that required fuel conditioner to eventually resolve that problem.

My point here is to say that poor fuel might not ignite as well as good fuel and why I experienced the hard start a few years ago.

Poor fuel can keep your car from starting.

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The car starts 99 times out of 100 tries, so unless it gets worse, there's not much to be done.

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Mike, mine was doing that on occasion a couple years ago for a few years straight. It would crank the whole cycle or two and then start up completely fine on the next attempt, usually when mild out. Knew it wasn't bad fuel but it was like the fuel wasn't flowing at all.

It was an intermittent issue that I'd mentioned to the dealership several times. During one visit I read they'd disconnected the harness from the Sam to inspect the connections and after that I've never had the issue again. I've never had the upgrade and relay installed at the Sam.

Although they never found anything wrong I am certain that one of the pins or connections got "cleaned up" just by removing and reinstalling. I think they might have used some of that electrical grease on it too.

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Thanks Mike, I took it apart and put it back together and touch wood it's been OK since, about 25 starts. I don't think it's a serious problem, as you say. The car runs great.

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Well, I'm having a similar problem now. I didn't know whether to continue on this thread or start a new one, so I decided to try and continue this one.

The car is a 2006 CDI, and it's relatively new to me. I have done external relays for the headlights, the starter motor, and the fuel pump.

I have been doing quite a bit of work on it (starter motor, fuel filter, external relays, front springs, intercooler) and just a month ago I started using the car every day. I have put about 700 kms without any issues at all.

Yesterday after stopping at a store for some bolts, the car cranked over and started really rough, like running on 2 cylinders. It ran like that for about 5 seconds, and I shut it off. When I tried again, it cranked and did not fire up. Kept trying several times, without luck. I need to mention here that the entrance to that store is gravel, and full of potholes. I drove in slowly trying to avoid the worst, but maybe something was shaken loose?.

Called CAA for a tow, and after waiting 5 minutes or so, decided to give the SAM a wack. The car started immediately. Drove around 5 kms, and when I was just about at my driveway, the engine quit running.

With some help, I pushed it into my driveway.

Today I was getting ready to do some troubleshooting and on my first try it started right away. Tried about 5 more times successfully every time.

Just in case took down the SAM and checked my relays. I removed the fuel pump relay and tried to start the car. It fired right up! and it kept running fine for a few more minutes until i turned it off.

I triple checked my wiring for the relay, and everything is as it should be, taking the signal out of pin 10 of the brown connector.

I did notice that there's another wire coming out of pin 10, a thinner white wire. Did I use the wrong wire to install the external relay? Where does that go?

It doesn't explain my problem, but it would explain why pulling out the relay did not make any difference at all.

In the meantime, I think I'll try removing and reinstalling all the connectors to the SAM, with dielectric grease.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

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