smart65

Negative email regarding electric cars

25 posts in this topic

My sister in London (Ontario) forwarded an email, the text of which I have quoted below. It attempts to dissuade the reader from considering purchase of an electric car. I'm sure readers of the Electric Drive forum will take issue with many of its "facts" and figures, and the conclusion which the author has deemed to be reasonable. I look forward to some interesting rebuttals.

DON’T TRUST EM
Carolyn what wasn't included from Wynne's government, "they, the Ontario Government, US TAXPAYERS WILL BE GIVING FREE OF 'CHARGE' 'PARDON THE PUN," $14,OOO TO ASSIST YOU IN PURCHASING AN ELECTRIC CAR. OF COURSE, SINCE OUR PROVINCE HAS A DEBT OF $300 BILLION AND PAYING $11 BILLION DOLLARS INTEREST, THE "GREEN ENERGY GIFT OF $14,000 WILL BE ADDED ON TO OUR DEBT, AND OUR INTEREST PAYMENTS, WHICH WILL BE PASSED DOWN TO OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS. GIVE ME A BREAK!




Still want to go electric?...
If you want to argue with a “green” person over cars that are Eco-friendly, just read the below:
Note: However, if you ARE the green person, read it anyway. Enlightening.
Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors...and he writes...For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.........So the American Government wants proud and loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay 3 times as much for a car, that costs more than 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times longer to drive across the country..... Where do I sign ?

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Your sister could read my blog where I outline the costs to run an EV in Ontario Canada.

EV is lower emissions over the life of the vehicle to produce, power and recycle when it's old:

http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/2015/09/smart-fortwo-from-cradle-to-grave.html

Battery will last the life of the car:

http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/2014/06/fortunately-world-class-engineers-are.html

EV rebates are repaid by purchases of electricity made in Ontario, whereas gas owners send their money out of Canada:

https://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/2014/05/rebates-how-dare-you-take-your-own.html

Comparison of equally functional cars, one an EV, one a gas car, the EV is cheaper to run/own:

https://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/2014/05/micra-shmicra.html

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Good lord! Are we still debating TCO of electric cars vrs ICE? Thought we moved passed that long time ago. We buy cars within our budget based on what we need, what we like - what makes us feel good. Try telling a Porsche owner that he is crazy for buying a carrera when a miata has much lower TCO. That said, the TCO story is getting better and better as economies of scale start kicking in. $250 for 3 years of maintenance certainly helps in the equation. But that is just the icing on the cake. It is all about how much you enjoy the driving experience. The ED still puts a smile on my face particularly when I put the pedal to the metal moving away from an intersection. So for me the electric car has been a big winner.

The debate of government subsidies is a righteous one but don't use it to cast dispersion on the electric car technologies. Governments have always, and will always, use incentives to accomplish their political agenda. If you think Wynne is making bad decisions you have the right to replace her with someone who thinks more like you do. Someone will certainly correct me if I'm wrong but... despite that email's SCREAMING IN UPPER CASE, the green plan is supposed to be revenue neutral with the carbon tax paying for the incentive program. Yes, it is another tax, and nobody likes paying more tax. But we are not accumulating more debt because of the incentive program.

@SmartElectric. Some thoughtful writing in you blog. Thanks for that.

Edited by swl
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Electric car overall efficiency is not that great less than 45%. I bet my Smart cdi is better.

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That's an interesting number @tolsoen I don't think I've seen one that low before. It must be some sort of attempt to factor in losses in power generation/transmission/charging/discharging... The source of the electric power must be considered to be very low efficiency to drive it down that far. Where I live a lot of our electricity is hydro electric so there is virtually no energy loss in production. Coal or oil fired generators of course would really start driving the overall efficiency down.

Nominal efficiency of a large electric motor is usually stated in the 90% range. That compares to 45% for the TDI, 30% for gasoline engine. There are of course on board losses in heat generated in the charging of the battery and then again on discharge but that should be minimal. I can't find any numbers for that other than "near 100%" on charging. On discharge there is definitely heat generated so there are losses there. We know that because tesla has to limit use of "ludicrous mode" to prevent battery overheating. in normal driving though I would expect it is close to 100% as well.

Really the only comparison between the two technologies would be energy in (gas/diesel/electricity) to miles driven. Then add the energy required to produce and deliver that energy. I can't give good scientific analysis but my gut says the electric cycle has to win hands down. Regenerative braking, no energy consumed at idle or coast - it has to work out in the electric car's favor.

I loved my 450TDI (almost 10 years) and reveled in its efficiency (except in winter when there was no waste heat to keep me warm!). But the last three years in the ED has taken the fun to a whole new level. Quiet, simple and goes like stink! and I can be smug and say I'm doing the "right thing" for the environment. What's not to like?

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Charge/ discharge efficiency of a Li-ion battery is typically 86%. Assume gas power generation efficiency of 60%, then allow for distribution and you get just below 45% overall efficiency.

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@tolsen, I think you are making the common mistake of calculating the efficiency of your diesel from the pump while, for the EV, you are going back to the generation of the electricity, thus ignoring the losses involved in creating the diesel fuel (i.e. mining, shipping, refining -- which uses copious amounts of electricity -- and distribution to your pump). To be fair you should be comparing the efficiency of your diesel (from the pump) with that of the EV (from the wall plug).

The OP's letter is a hoot. I know of Volt owners who brag that they've only had to fill up at the pump twice a year -- the rest of their mileage being done on electricity alone. Also, the assumption that we have to sit around for 10 hours while our battery charges is missing the point -- we plug them in at night so they're ready in the morning and it seldom takes 10 hours. Finally, where does this guy live that he has to pay $1.16/kwH for his power! He must be burning $20 bills to create his electricity. I suspect he's misread a stat he's pulled off the internet and put the decimal point in the wrong place. I can believe 11.6 cents, but not $1.16. And his figure of 74 cents per mile is equally hilarious. When I first got my ED I kept close track of how much it cost me to charge, right down the the kilowatts of electricity used. The first 8,000 kms ended up costing me $190, which works out to 2.4 cents per km -- and this included driving through the brutal winter of 2013-14.

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I think I did a fair estimate. For the cdi I worked it from the pump. For the electric car I worked it back to the generating plant.

Nothng wrong with that.

You mean I should also allow for production of both gas and diesel? Can't see the point in that.

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Another goofy but fun way to consider "efficiency" is to compare the relative energy densities of gas and battery over distance traveled. Based on this assumption: 1 US gallon = 33.7 kw/h (See http://www.carstuffshow.com/blog/how-to-convert-gasoline-energy-to-kilowatt-hours-kwh/). Then 1 litre of gasoline has the equivalent of about 9.1 kw/h capacity

On a good day my Honda fit can do 6l/100km on the highway using 54.6 kw/h

But the Smart ED will do that same 100km with a meager 17 kw/h (or less, depending on speed).

More than 3x as efficient. Woot!

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@tolsen Comparing the efficiency of the diesel from the pump against the EV from the generating plant is like comparing apples to oranges. Both fuels need to be created before they can be used in cars, but your calculation shows all the cost of creating electricity but none of the cost of creating diesel. That makes it unfair. People need to realize how enormously energy intensive (and inefficient) it is to create the diesel and gas that goes into their tanks.

If you want a real-world comparison of the efficiency of the two versions of the Smart, ask yourself how far you could drive on $190 worth of diesel. I drove 8,000 km in my ED.

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As stated my estimate was based on electricity produced by burning gas, i.e. natural gas. I did not consider the cost to produce the gas and supply the gas to the power station. Diesel fuel for my Smart similar.

You can charge your electric vehicle at free charging stations in which case driving wlll not cost much. Regrettably no such schemes available for by Cdi.

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As stated my estimate was based on electricity produced by burning gas, i.e. natural gas. I did not consider the cost to produce the gas and supply the gas to the power station. Diesel fuel for my Smart similar.

You can charge your electric vehicle at free charging stations in which case driving wlll not cost much. Regrettably no such schemes available for by Cdi.

Ive been running my CDI on used hydraulic oil for almost 2 years. 1000s of liters for free. Fuel station set up in my garage. Havent bought fuel for 50,000+ km. Tons of 'schemes' available :)

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No free charging stations here outside of a couple of hotels, which I haven't used. So $190 for 8, 000 km reflects the true cost of driving my EV. As I stated earlier, the EV equivalent of the diesel pump is the wall oulet, not the generating station.

Of course the costs of generating electricity varies depending on its source. Where I live, most power is hydro electric. The cost of creating diesel, however, is pretty much the same everywhere.

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Electric car overall efficiency is not that great less than 45%. I bet my Smart cdi is better.

Bet lost.

https://youtu.be/oJcmi9ebvnY?t=158

Diesel fuel requires more electricity in the refining process than the Smart ED uses to drive the distance of the fuel refined.

Meaning, for 1 gallon of Diesel, the electricity required to refine it would power a Smart ED further than 50 miles.

My Smart ED runs on unicorn farts, also known as the incredibly clean Ontario power grid which produces electricity at a surplus overnight such that charging an EV is effectively using the spare power that would otherwise be boiled into the atmosphere:

http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/2014/03/choose-one-boil-steam-or-recharge.html

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The math and facts in that email are totally bogus. I don't know about you, but I only pay about 10 cents per kWh depending on time of day - sometimes 9 cents, sometime 11 cents. So usually $1.60 for a full charge that takes me 150 kms. So about a penny a km.

Electric vehicles are sitting around 90% efficiency. Compare that to a diesel at absolute maximum of 50% efficiency. By efficiency I mean energy consumed vs kinetic energy produced.

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To be fair Marc, the numbers you are quoting are the result of misleading advertising. That is the OPG portion of the bill - what we pay for the electricity itself. After the last price hike that stands at 8.7 off peak, 13.2 mid peak, 18 peak.

But, and its a big but, there are all sorts of other fees added to your bill. Distribution, Debt reduction ... Take your bill and divide the cost by kw/hrs. You will find you wind up paying double that amount especially if you are heavily biased to off peak.

edit: I stand corrected. It doesn't double. found an old bill - haven't been saving them lately. The electricity portion was $28 . The final bill amount was $109 - pretty close to 4 times the electricity cost = :()

So, for argument's sake, if say about 4 cent per kilometer

and diesel is about $1.00/L

and the cdi does about 4L/100km

That's $4/100k or 4 cents per kilometer??? That can't be right. What have I done wrong? Last time I did this calc electricity worked out to be a third of diesel.

Edited by swl

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To be fair Marc, the numbers you are quoting are the result of misleading advertising. That is the OPG portion of the bill - what we pay for the electricity itself. After the last price hike that stands at 8.7 off peak, 13.2 mid peak, 18 peak.

But, and its a big but, there are all sorts of other fees added to your bill. Distribution, Debt reduction ... Take your bill and divide the cost by kw/hrs. You will find you wind up paying double that amount especially if you are heavily biased to off peak.

edit: I stand corrected. It doesn't double. found an old bill - haven't been saving them lately. The electricity portion was $28 . The final bill amount was $109 - pretty close to 4 times the electricity cost = :()

So, for argument's sake, if say about 4 cent per kilometer

and diesel is about $1.00/L

and the cdi does about 4L/100km

That's $4/100k or 4 cents per kilometer??? That can't be right. What have I done wrong? Last time I did this calc electricity worked out to be a third of diesel.

In my case, I actually made my calculation based on total delivered cost, including delivery, debt retirement, tax etc. I understand that different parts of the province, and Canada have different rates, so it won't be the same for everyone.

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To be fair Marc....found an old bill - haven't been saving them lately. The electricity portion was $28 . The final bill amount was $109

OMG, made me laugh. Really you say "to be fair", and then list a bill with $28 of electricity?! For REAL?!

$28 in electricity is about 150 kWh of electricity over one month, or about 5 kWh of electricity per day.

GIVE ME A BREAK! The average household uses ~20 kWh per day.

My Ontario electricity bill shows that I pay $0.138 all-in (taxes, distribution, etc) for my overnight electricity.

We use a "normal" amount of electricity, so that is being "fair".

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To be fair Marc....found an old bill - haven't been saving them lately. The electricity portion was $28 . The final bill amount was $109

OMG, made me laugh. Really you say "to be fair", and then list a bill with $28 of electricity?! For REAL?!

$28 in electricity is about 150 kWh of electricity over one month, or about 5 kWh of electricity per day.

GIVE ME A BREAK! The average household uses ~20 kWh per day.

My Ontario electricity bill shows that I pay $0.138 all-in (taxes, distribution, etc) for my overnight electricity.

We use a "normal" amount of electricity, so that is being "fair".

That comes across as a very demeaning response @smartelectric.

My point is that the advertised electricity price is only a part of the cost of hydro - that delivery, regulatory fees, debt reduction, delivery and tax increase that significantly. It should not be used calculate cost per Km.

You will note that I was confused by my own calculation and was sure it was wrong. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. That which I grabbed as the electricity cost was not a subtotal it was the off-peak. So it was artificially low by about $12.

Since we charge our cars generally at night at the 9 cent rate we would have to get complicated to properly calculate the cost per KW. I got lazy and just used a multiplier. There a fixed part and a variable to the extra charges. Without knowing what the fixed portion is are only estimating. The shouldn't taken into consideration when calculating our cost/kwh. We pay that whether we charge or not. Some studying of the OEB website might make that possible but I'm not in the mood.

BTW - back then my average was $0.21/Kwh. That is with 2/3 being off peak (7.5cents) I'm definitely on the low side of that "normal" consumption. 12-17Kwh/day. The effect of those fixed costs hit the low consumer harder than the "normal" consumers.

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Actually your delievery and regulation bs charges changes depending on consumption. I deal with this crap daily I've basically got my properties down to 1-7kw/day now and the main wearhouse is completely off grid.

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At 92.9 cents per litre including HST, it costs me about $0.25 per km if I factor one oil change per six months.(Mobile oil of coarse)=

Just the cost to drive it 1 km.

You missed that Marc already answered you up-thread, relevant section pasted below:

I only pay about 10 cents per kWh depending on time of day - sometimes 9 cents, sometime 11 cents. So usually $1.60 for a full charge that takes me 150 kms.

So about a penny a km.

For me, my Smart ED costs less than 1/4 my previous relatively efficient 4 cylinder car (Ford Focus) used to cost per km for fuel.

It is not possible to drive a cheaper car than an EV per km. Not possible.

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That comes across as a very demeaning response @smartelectric.

Not meant to offend, I did actually laugh out loud, so that was my reaction to your post.

The math is easy, EV's are like driving a 160 mpg car in terms of fuel cost in Ontario.

Meaning, if you currently drive a car that gets 40 mpg and you spend $120 per month on gas, in an EV you would instead spend $30 on electricity to drive the same distance and never have to visit a gas station again.

EV's aren't only efficient, they are also fun to drive due to all that electric motor torque with no lag, and more luxurious (no smell, no vibration/noise) than the equivalent gas car.

Edited by SmartElectric

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Don't get me wrong @smartElectric, I'm not arguing against the cost savings. I just want to make sure that any numbers that we put out there can't be jumped on the way we are jumping on the OP statement of electricity costs. Philosophically I'm opposed to the cost comparisons. As you said the fun of the electric car is worth paying MORE for.

But if we are talking costs...

I found this tool:

http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Electricity/Your+Electricity+Utility

Plugged in numbers appropriate for my situation with a consumption of 500Kwh with about 66%off peak.

Did another run with 510Kwh and played with the time of day distribution to get that extra 10 assigned to off peak.

End result suggested the marginal off-peak rate, all in, was about 17 cents per Kwh. Good enough for discussions. Tough for nay-sayers to shoot down.

Over the last 3000km I've been averaging 15.8Kwh/100Km so $0.027 per kilometer. Sound right?

Total spend on warranty maintenance over 30 months $250. And that is a bit of a rip off IMHO. But I'm on lease so I have to follow the recommended schedule.

Edited by swl
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Great tool! Finally some real numbers.

I live in Toronto

If my house uses 10kwh per day (300kwh per month) using 2 extreme cases to determine kwh cost:

At 100% peak rates each 18kwh full charge will cost about $4.68 (26 cents per kwh).

At 100% lowest rate each 18kwh full charge will cost about $2.70 (15 cents per kwh).

Edited by smartdriver

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