GRP151

Why does the Turbo's fail?

35 posts in this topic

My Turbo's not working? This 2006  has only 87,000 KM!

 

No trouble codes or lights displayed on the dash indicating any problems.

 

I have no oil smoke exhausting from the motor at all, there appears to be a little oil at the base of the intercooler and a lot around the lower transmission case.

 

If it has failed would it be due from inferior metals used for the turbine shaft causing it to spin out and tear apart?

 

Image 1- is what I thought was a stuck waste gate, but that wasn't it.

 

Image 2- Is when  I noticed some oil from the base of the turbine.

 

Image 3-The lower portion of the motor is very clean

 

Image 4- the transmission is loaded with oil.

 

Strange how the motor is not smoking at any time, in idle, or high speeds?

 

Can the turbine be stuck?

 

Is the motor in limp mode controlled by the ECM?

 

 

 

 

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Edited by GRP151

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Something is leaking your boost pressure.  Probably intercooler has sprung leaks in way of contact with its cradle..  As for turbo just disconnect inlet pipe and check if it spins freely without any visible wobble and not too much play.

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Nissens 96499 is currently the cheapest intercooler for the 450 Cdi.  £86.00

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Yup classic intercooler hole (a BAD one).

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A leaking inter cooler is repairable.  Each tube, which is an aluminium extrution, is made up of about a dozen or more smaller tubes.  Even if it would appear all tubes in contact with the cradle are holed,  you loose no more than 8% efficiency by sealing them.  Inter cooler must be removed and thoroughly cleaned for the repair.  No sealant or epoxy will bond to aluminium wetted in oil.

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I'm not sure if I understand this correctly but from the comments the diagnosis is as follows:

 

1. Leaking engine oil, that is lubricating the turbo shaft, is being forced through the inlet pipe that is connected into a mini radiator called the Intercooler which has its own cooling fan.

2. The Intercooler has developed a hole or a crack, at the base of the unit, probably due to vibrational mounting wear and as a result the boost pressure is lost and reduced.

3. With the reduced boost pressure the result is a decrease in engine power unable to produce more torque and higher RPM's .

 

If this is correct, I would assume, the turbo would also need to be replaced to prevent any more oil from entering the engine through the intercooler?

Yet there is no visible signs of smoke being expelled from the exhaust?

 

 

 

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Most of the oil comes from engine breather pipe.  To confirm I suggest you disconnect breather pipe temporarily from valve cover.  Fit a clear plastic hose and let it drain into a bottle.  Go for a drive and perhaps you'll have enough oil enough to sell.

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Almost right

The way I read it is;

The hole in your inter cooler is letting oil out, as well as your boost pressure.  As a result of this escaping pressure your turbo is pulling more air in to try and maintain your boost pressure.  The air inlet and air cleaner filter are not sized for this increase in air volume, this results in a lower -preturbo- engine intake air pressure which in turn draws out more crankcase gasses which carries with it a mist of oil.  This extra oil accumulates in your intercooler and gets blown out the hole or crack.

Have you notices an increase in oil consumption?  Since there is not a lot of black exhaust smoke or engine codes, I believe your turbo is just fine.

My advise is to fix your intercooler problem and see if your other problems disappear when the system is brought back into its designed balance.

Best of luck

Alan

Edited by Henry
clarification
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The turbo is likely fine and should have an indefinite service life if proper cool down procedures are followed.

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I'm still a little confused so correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

The crack or hole  in the intercooler would allow an increase in air volume through the 'system' and in doing so this results in a lower engine air pressure  intake which in turn draws out more crankcase gasses from the breather pipe which carries with it a mist of oil back into the engine.

 

With the reduced air pressure the motor cannot reach its full potential and all of that oil that is pissing out of the intercooler is because the air pressure within the internals of the motor are off balance (so of speak)

 

Is that the correct analogy?

 

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My 2006 did not have the intercooler hole but I modified the shroud to prevent the problem, but I had a big hole in the top EGR hose because of the wire harness had rubbed through the hose.

make sure you inspect that hose first, and go from there. If the hose is covered in oil, chances are it is leaking through there.

A new one is over $120 at the dealer but I wrapped mine with silicone tape from Canadian Tire.

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Most engines these days have some sort of oil mist separator to recover oil from breather gasses.  No such thing on our wee Cdi.  Just a short cranked hose from valve cover to inlet duct in front of turbo compressor.  For that reason there will always be oil collecting in inter cooler.  Has nothing to do with turbo unless turbo is defective.

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Just an extra comment.

 

When I bought my new used smart in 2007, I noticed a large amount of oil pouring out of the air intake on the left side of the car. 

 

Turns out that the previous owner had overfilled the crankcase. I removed about a litre and fixed the problem.

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Thanks for all your reply's. Yes it was the intercooler!

 

Here's another question.

 

My intercooler fan continues to run for about 10- 15 seconds after the engine shuts off. It only happens to one of the many smarts that I have.

 

I think the motor may have been remapped with that feature programmed into it or is this normal and my other cars are not working properly?

 

Edited by GRP151

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5 minutes ago, cadillacman said:

 

I believe they are all supposed to do this, cold weather notwithstanding

Any idea what controls the fan to go on and off?

I thought it may be thermostatically controlled?

It will start working even when I start a cold engine and turn if off after a minute or two.

That's why i thought it may  have been programmed. This particular smart has a lot more pep that the other ones.

Edited by GRP151

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Inlet air temperature sensor fitted at bottom of intercooler.  Can't take much brainwork to work that out.  Fan will run continuously if you unplug sensor.  

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On 9/25/2016 at 9:22 PM, tolsen said:

Inlet air temperature sensor fitted at bottom of intercooler.  Can't take much brainwork to work that out.  Fan will run continuously if you unplug sensor.  

 

And that explains what?

If the compressed air is hot from the turbo charger the fan is turned on to reduce the air temp into the engine via the intercooler.

 

That part is obvious.

 

If the compressed air is NOT hot the intercooler does not require cooling yet the fan still comes on.

It then shuts itself off a few seconds after the motor has been turned off?

 

Which part is the no brainwork?

 

Why would the fan come on after a few minutes of running on a cool day?

Why is this not consistent with the other 450's?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by GRP151

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I suspect you have a faulty inlet air temperature sensor.  It has a standard thermistor NTC glass bead thermistor, Beta value = 3988 Kelvin, R0 = 3000 Ohm.

These cost less than a Pound each and easy to replace.

To fault find you can connect either your outside temperature sensor or coolant temperature sensor.

 

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s-l1600.jpg

 

Close up image of an aftermarket inlet air sensor.  Glass bead is glued on.  Its pins are soldered on this one but that is not necessarily the case with the original sensor.  You need a heat sink clamp when soldering to avoid damaging thermistor due to overheating.

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I suspect it is not a problem to have the fan running constantly throughout the summer but thermostically controlled for the cold winter.

Having it controlled should extended the life of the fan with minimal use as needed.

 

 

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Intercooler scoop is particularly important in order to provide adequate air flow to intercooler.

 

Mine has an enhanced scoop so provides more cooling air flow.  Running without scoop is not recommended except for winter when scoops tend to come off.

 

I have also improved fixing of scoop.  It is held on as standard with two carbon steel clips at top and a plastic expanding pin at bottom.  The steel clips rust and fall off.  Plastic pin is too weak.  Mine is now held on with two stainless steel clips at top and an M5 bolt with large washer at bottom.

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The enhanced scoop:

DSC03277.jpg

 

DSC03278.jpg

 

On average I've lost or damaged one scoop per winter. Scoop is suffering damage even after removal of rubber lip.

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hmm just following this thread and its getting very interesting. I had a problem with the inter cooler also wearing a grove from the air scoop. 

Oil everywhere and I lost boost pressure as it was escaping.

I cleaned the EGR valve which wasn't too bad but after replacing the inter cooler it doesn't seem to have much more power?

 

I removed the rod connected to the waste gate lever and it moves freely.

No codes or engine light appearing.

Did  I miss something?

 

 

Edited by Ritchie

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Idle is 99 kPa to 202 kPa on full throttle.

It looks like it could have peaked around 220 kPa but it happens so quickly that I can't be sure if its accurate

 

Sorry this reply is for my other 450 which has P0238 error code.

 

I haven't tested the 450 in this post yet. I will later today and reply here

Edited by Ritchie

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On 10/2/2016 at 1:40 PM, cadillacman said:

What MAP value does your scanner show when u accelerate ?

In idle it is 99 kPa as I accelerate it reduces to 95 kPa?

Would you know what controls the actuator? Is it vacuum?

the hose to it is in good condition as well as no cracks in the manifold and EGR was cleaned

 

Edited by Ritchie

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