Gonzo91

Diesel Not starting, turns over. Rebuilt. Any help please

63 posts in this topic

Hi, I'm currently in my first year/foundations for heavy mechanical trades and I am working on a side project for my instructor. He picked up a 2005 smart for two diesel. It had died on the previous owners. The engine was pulled and inspected and it was found that a ring had seized. A full rebuild on the internals was done and put back together. It also needed an injector and a relay. So my instructor had the relay swapped out and got a new injector. 

Currently it won't start on its own, it can be started with ether but then dies. I can hear the fuel pump prime when i turn the ignition on, but when i turn it over the engine turns but i can hear a loud air pumping sound as if the system is only blowing air, kind of like a dry firing air only sound. Reminds me of a faster sound when i start up the big old IR compressor at the farm.

I'm not really sure where to start or what to check first. I have used the search option. I'm thinking to crack the lines to each injector to check for fuel and pressure?

 

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

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Check for seized alternator. 

Do not use ether.

Compression possibly low.  Try wetting the pistons by spraying penetration oil into inlet duct after EGR valve.  The oil may be sufficient to improve compression enough for engine to start and run.

Also, do not crack open high pressure pipes.  Pressure when cranking is typically around 300 bar.

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Thanks, I appreciate the replies. Going to listen to what Tolsen said and try that tomorrow. Still a learning process for me. 
Going to read that thread before bed. I've mostly been around  diesel engines in semi trucks and tractor engine along with my own Mitsubishi pajero and VW tdi's. 

I will have to pull the engine again in the smart car because as they put it in last time they pinched the e brake cable and didn't correct that.

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I ran 2 squirts of oil down cyl 1, pulled the injector. Turned it over and had more umph/compression but didn't fire. I took out all the injectors and swapped them around. I relubed each cylinder again. Noticeable difference again, but wouldn't fire. my instructor and i thought that it wasnt getting fuel,  I cracked a union from the rail to an injector and got fuel shooting out when i turned the pump on. Kinda stumped now... 


Next step is to pull the glow plug from cyl #1 and test compression i guess?

 

 Note- It's warm in our shop and my instructor noted that the glow plug controller never worked.

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Send out the injectors for a fuel quantity test. Very common on non running common rail engines for the injectors to only be delivering half the requested fuel (not enough to start). Check the crank sensor (resistance). Check compression. Check for power to the fuel system/injectors (not easily done, it is low voltage and high frequency, test light is not going to work). 

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Similar situation: just bought a 2006 CDi with low mileage (80K kms) and low compression on two cylinders, pulled the engine and went through it (professional engine builder). One stuck compression ring and moderate rust on upper inch of each cylinder wall. Likely has been parked for quite a while given the low odometer reading. Cleaned and honed the cylinders, less than 0.0015" taper, ring lands have very little wear, chain and guides show very little wear. Rebuilt the head, installed new rings and head gasket and reassembled engine.

 

Getting strong even pulses when cranking and even puffs of light blue smoke indicating presence of atomized fuel but no firing. I checked the glow plugs for resistance when I had them out, all good, injector resistance was good. The glow plug light only comes on for about a second then goes out. Have continuity to the glow plugs through the harness, 12v on the large red wire to the controller. Removed glow plug controller and inspected inside, no evidence of distress. All terminals and contacts clean, no sign of corrosion. Fully charged battery, alternator spins freely, can't find my code reader.

 

The dash has what I assume is the yellow electric heater icon on: a horizontal line with three wavy lines going up from it. No change when I move the temperature lever on the heater. Again, glow plug light comes on for about one second then goes out. 17 C outside temp (in my shop actually). Given my experience with diesels including my 2001 Duramax, I don't think the glow plug duration is sufficient to get them up to temp, plus my neighbor has a Smart CDi and the light is on for about three or four seconds under the same conditions. Disconnected the #2 glow plug and the light stays on when the key is on. Reconnect and it goes out after about a second.

 

I'll see if I can try out his glow plug controller but any other suggestions in the meantime? Am I missing something? I suspect that the car was parked because of an un-diagnosed prior issue with the resulting cylinder wall rust from sitting so long.

Edited by mender

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Check to see if its getting fuel. When the key is turned on do you hear a small motor running from passenger footwell?

That's the fuel pump running.

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I know I'm getting some fuel because of the vapourized diesel coming out the exhaust but I'll check the fuel pressure on the low and high pressure sides tomorrow, thanks!

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No, flywheel is still in place. When I pulled out the pistons, the rod bearings were in excellent condition so I didn't do a complete tear-down, just a light hone and careful wall cleaning before reassembly.

 

Is there a way to rig up a temporary glow plug power circuit? I'd like to try that to see if it's the controller. How much draw is there with all three glow plugs and do they each normally get full battery voltage (i.e. parallel circuit) during the pre-glow stage?

Edited by mender

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Glow plugs also remain on post start for quite a few seconds. 

Simply connect a test lamp to confirm. 

 

Try improving cylinder compression by spraying oil into inlet manifold. 

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Update: fuel pump runs and pressure on low side is 2.1 bar just before the clear lines by the fuel rail. Drops to 1.9 bar while cranking. No start but again, puffs of atomized diesel coming out of the exhaust. Checked high side fuel pressure sensor, has 5.012 volts supply and good ground, sensor voltage is 0.035 volts when fuel pump is on. Sensor reading goes to -0.086 volts while cranking, supply voltage drops to 4.868 volts while cranking. A little math shows the voltage difference when on and then again while cranking is roughly the same at about 4.96 volts. How would a faulty pressure sensor affect starting/running? 

 

No voltage to glow plugs with key on or cranking. Removed and tested each glow plug for function, all good. Dribbled a little engine oil into each glow plug hole and spun engine to relube walls. Re-installed glow plugs, hooked up jumper harness that I made and connected directly to the battery for a few seconds before cranking.  Healthy spark when initially touching the positive battery terminal and the 10 gauge wire that I made the jumper harness from gets warm after several starting cycles so good power flow.  Although it will now pop once or twice during the cranking cycle, still no start.

Edited by mender

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Also wondering where the block heater on the engine is and what it looks like. I traced the block heater cord from the front and it ends right by the engine but I don't see anywhere to plug it in on the engine. I didn't notice a recognizable block heater when I was working on the engine.

 

Pictures, anyone?

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This is a 2006, and the terminal end of the cord seems to be positioned to connect to something on the engine.

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Perhaps somebody before you have fitted flywheel incorrectly therefore engine being out of sync?

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52 minutes ago, tolsen said:

Perhaps somebody before you have fitted flywheel incorrectly therefore engine being out of sync?

Could be; I don't have a history of what the car was subjected to before I got it. 

 

Procedure for checking correct fitment? No issues with the fuel rail sensor readings?

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One cannot see if dowel on flywheel spider is aligned with corresponding hole in flywheel unless transmission is removed. 

 

Perhaps a timing strobe light will work?  Peel back outer sleeve on lead to number one injector. Clip pulse inductive pickup to one of the two wires and pray strobe light will work. 

 

Voltage to drive these injectors is in the region of 70 Volts. Also relatively high amps so good chance inductive pickup will sense pulse and trigger strobe light. 

 

This is something I would like to test myself but regrettably both my timing lights have gone kaputt. 

 

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I'm suspicious now that I think about it. I left the flywheel in place on the engine stand and had to modify my engine stand a little, resulting in one stand-off being very close to the flywheel. I did notice a light rub mark on one part of the flywheel when putting the engine and transmission back together, very likely from touching that stand-off when rotating the crank during the engine work. Should have investigated further as that would appear to indicate that the flywheel is not centred properly on the crank.

 

Will have to set the car aside for a while but will report back on what I find. Thanks for your help with this, Tolsen. :)

Edited by mender

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Any information about the relationship between the flywheel notches and TDC? For example, "the wider gap should be 35 degrees BTDC"? I have a boroscope and was thinking of removing the crank sensor and checking the indexing through the hole. Seems a lot less work than taking the engine back out. ;)

 

Also, is there a recommended workshop manual for my 2006 CDi? I had a quick look online but they seem to be for 2007+.

Edited by mender

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4 hours ago, tolsen said:

One cannot see if dowel on flywheel spider is aligned with corresponding hole in flywheel unless transmission is removed. 

 

Perhaps a timing strobe light will work?  Peel back outer sleeve on lead to number one injector. Clip pulse inductive pickup to one of the two wires and pray strobe light will work. 

 

Voltage to drive these injectors is in the region of 70 Volts. Also relatively high amps so good chance inductive pickup will sense pulse and trigger strobe light. 

 

This is something I would like to test myself but regrettably both my timing lights have gone kaputt. 

 

Looked at some pictures of the flywheel spider and the dowel pin looks pretty long. That should be obvious enough to prevent incorrect installation but from your questions that may not be the case. I can't find any indication of the correct indexing of the flywheel via the flywheel notches and TDC; I guess that would have been good information to have checked when the engine was out.

 

Can the transmission be removed without pulling the whole assembly again, or is it easier to drop everything again?

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I do not know for sure but I have seen where people have tilted the engine transmission assembly enough to be able to remove transmission while in car.....never done it yet or removed engine assembly as a whole yet either.  I was pondering these moves over the last week or so myself,  and would have been able to tell you but family and the holiday responciilities took over my garage time.....lol.  Tomorrow's another day as I'm free once again.....lol

Good luck....also from what I have learned from looking myself, no paper manuals what so ever for these vehicles. Evilution is the best for technical information but no chatting. Kane will respond and is very helpfull but loves when people use manners......please and thank you goes a long way in his eyes as well as us older folks.   He has helped me many times in the last few months with my vibration problems, suggesting many viable options.  Nothing replaces a written manual imho.

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You can remove transmission with subframe fitted to chassis.  I did that many years ago when I first had clutch trouble.

 

Brief description of how:

 

1)  Rear end on stands, handbrake lever in down off position.

2) Slacken off each subframe bolt ensuring at least 5 turn thread engagement.

3) Unbolt X frame arms from DeDion tube each side.  Do not unbolt shocks.

4) Remove drive shafts.  If you have been suficiently smart, you would have slackened off drive shaft centre bolts earlier.

5) Support engine on trolley jack and remove left side mount.

6) Lower jack so transmission swings down suficiently for removal of intercooler etc.

7) Make a suitable temporary support out of wood to support left side of engine and fit in place.

8) Place trolley jack under transmission, unclip all electrics and remove bolts.

9) Remove transmission. 

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Willys, thanks for the heads up and advice, all info and and such are always welcome! And Tolsen, thanks again for your help, I had a look last night and was thinking the only tricky part might be to get the driver's side axle out and the rest would be pretty straightforward after that. I left the subframe in place the first time but will loosen the bolts off for more access.

 

I have a few tasks to do today but might get to it so will hopefully be able to report back soon on progress. 

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