Gonzo91

Diesel Not starting, turns over. Rebuilt. Any help please

67 posts in this topic

Now have two out of three spare injectors with 5 evenly spraying holes; the third is still at four but soaking overnight.

 

I think I found a better way to check the spray pattern than just putting a liquid through. I filled an expansion/frost plug with the cleaning fluid (gunwash) and pointed the nozzle at it while spraying air through the nozzle with a rubber-tipped air gun and covering the return hole. By varying the pressure and the distance above the liquid I can compare the volume of air coming out of each orifice.

 

I also found that back flushing by putting the rubber tip over the external part of the nozzle really helped clean things out.

 

I'm going to get the other three injectors that were in the Smart car at the Pick N Pull and I'm pretty sure I should be able get at least three cleaned and working from the nine.

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I got the three "cleaned", tested (and failed) injectors back and took the nozzles off one at a time to clean them.

 

Same initial results: only 2 or 3 holes not completely clogged, usually only one that sprayed well and the others weakly. Decided to back flush them right away, and the results were usually 4 pretty good sprays.Tells me that just sonic testing isn't quite enough and that a backflush really helps, probably to blow the little bits and grits out instead of trying to force them through the tiny orifices. I was able to get one up to 5 decent sprays fairly quickly so I reassembled it and put the three best injectors back in the engine. Immediate difference, it tried to start but didn't quite. A assist spritz brought it to life and this time it idled at 800 rpm for about 10 seconds before slowing and quitting. The next time it started unassisted, and it stayed running longer.

 

I put the intake hose back on and hopped in to see if it would do more than idle. Started up and yes, it responded to the accelerator pedal. Revved it up gently to about 1500 rpm but then it died again. Was thinking that the low pressure fuel side was cutting out so the next time I let it idle to see how long it would go. It stayed running at 800 rpm this time. A few more tries with moderate revving and quitting. Got the first blob of engine temp, and it's getting better each time.

 

It will now start almost immediately and idles pretty smoothly at 800 rpm, takes throttle and will rev up to 3000 rpm although not quickly.  Didn't try higher than that for now, put it in first and it did the right things by easing forward with throttle. It's in my shop so no test drive yet. Next step is one I should have done earlier: drain the tank and refill with fresh fuel with some fuel system additive.

 

The previous owner said it was suffering from lack of power and that's why they parked it. Looks like a set of injectors would have solved the problem but things got worse form sitting, and the cylinder walls ended up with a light coat of rust. Thanks, Willys, for being brave enough to clean your injectors and then post! And to all who have responded, Tolsen especially, many thanks for the help! The saga isn't over yet but it's now alive!

Edited by mender
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Posted (edited) · Report post

Hey glad to hear you have signs of life!
I'm a firm believe in things can be dealt with  yourself simply because of the folks who own vehicles in third world countries. They do not have the funds, tools  or even the dealership network to take their vehicles to, to get them repaired and they seem to last a long time.  I'm not saying it's the best way to fix things, but if they can deal with the very same issues, why can't we.?  Now I'm not saying they are all doing things correctly or even the best way sometimes...such as forcing things into the holes of the nozzles trying to clean them out. I wouldn't recommend trying it this way either....but when you are being quoted $750 per injector, I think someone is getting wealthy off someone...OR....the owner just can't be bothered to solve the issue themselves. They obviously have enough cash to simply pay, no matter what...?  When I can buy a used part for a few dollars to do trial and error testing/cleaning etc....without fear of ruining the one you wish to use...I have no problem having a go fixing anything. Worst synario you destroy the part, best, you learn how it works and figure out how best to clean or repair it.  I destroyed one injector learning how they worked....or how much voltage they don't want...lol.  A $15 mistake compared to a $750 mistake....I can throw away $15 daily compared to one shot of a new injector...damn!
Glad to be of some help.....my cleaned injectors seem to be working just fine also....time will tell.   I could be wrong....we'll see...

 

I nearly forgot to say, I bet you have dirt or crud in your tank as some injector youtube clips suggested cleaning the tank and replacing filter and flushing lines etc etc....OR....you could run the pump and filter through a fine cloth to see if you are pushing particles..?  

 

 

Edited by Willys

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I replaced the fuel filter and engine oil as soon as I got the car, I always do at least that much. As far as cleaning the injectors, the fuel passages through the main body are quite open so only the nozzle really needs cleaning. No need to field strip it from what I've seen.

 

 My wife and in-laws were missionaries in Africa so I've heard lots of first-hand stories about third world fixes!

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I found the guts to have a film on them which came off during sonic cleaning, they also fit together better afterwards also....not saying you're wrong, just I prefer to clean everything possible IF you have the chance.....I also noticed that some of the smaller parts took some banging on a wooden block to get them out, and fell out after cleaning.  IF I didn't have the sonic cleaner I would have probably not gone so deep either.  I also found refuse flushing the tip or nozzle to be greatly noticable for positive results./   I simply used a carb cleaner to flush mine in that direction....if memory serves me right.  

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Quick update: a busy day and evening so only had time for a couple starts. My neighbor by my shop has a diesel Smart car so I had him give me his opinion of how mine is running. 

 

I started it, it ran on all three cylinders right away but didn't rev up until a few seconds after the starter stopped. It then ran at about 400 rpm for a few more seconds then picked up to 800 rpm. Ran there for a few more seconds then dropped back down to about 400 rpm and chugged away without quitting. No throttle response. Shut it off and restarted, this time I revved it up a bit to demonstrate throttle response. Ran it up to about 1200 rpm and it ran there for a short bit then dropped back to 400 rpm with no response.

 

He confirmed that the throttle response when working sounded right and was impressed with how evenly it ran at 400 rpm. I'll time the duration of the response vs no response time, then hook up my fuel pressure gauge on the low side to see if that pump is shutting off for some reason.

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Just as a future thought, I purchased the rebuild kits for the high pressure pump.....just in case my pump decided to quit on me...it was cheap.   A small bag of O rings etc.....maybe time to think of that?  I do hear it's a nasty job though? Getting the pump off the engine that is. Have you done any type of compression test? Sorry didn't reread thread to get answer..lol.  I made a leak down type tester out of an old injector.  It'll tell you if the valves are leaking or rings? Not enough compression ?  Spit balling again..?

 

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I just rebuilt the engine so I know it's in good shape. I own and run a high performance engine shop so I usually go overboard in that department. I made and installed an EGR block-off plate as well.

 

I have two spare high pressure pumps including one that's supposed to be remanufactured but I've already confirmed via the fuel rail pressure sensor readings that the high pressure side is in the right range.

 

I have a short list of things to check:

1. Glow plug function: picked up a third glow plug controller for testing but suspect something else is the root reason.

2. Slow idle on start, then 800 rpm for about 10 seconds then back to 400 rpm. Once the engine was getting some heat into it it didn't do that. I'd really like to have a decent description of the ECU programming so I can figure out why it goes into the slow idle cycle when cold.

3. Test drive to see if it can attain road speed. As mentioned earlier, it was suffering from a lack of power when it got parked. I can hear the turbo spool up when I lean into the throttle in neutral but obviously that doesn't mean much other than the turbo isn't seized. 

 

It's becoming apparent that this car likely has several issues that led to it getting parked. 

Edited by mender

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Inner cooler rad..?

Pin hole in any it's hoses?

You did open up all computers and check every solder joint for cracks? 

Continuity on all and any wires?

Fuel filter?  Maybe a crushed line or collapsed line? 

 

Again just spit balling???

 

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The few things I haven't gotten into yet are those two boxes on the right frame rail that you are speaking of. I think. So far mine hasn't shown any signs of those issues.

 

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Intercooler had a bit of soot in it from the EGR but otherwise fine, no boost leaks that are apparent.

 

The test drive was a bit slow! I drove it in circles around my shop yard for about ten minutes to get the engine to temp and to see how it was doing before venturing out on the road. It barely had enough to get moving but managed to get to 50 kph after about a block or so. I live in a small town so it wasn't hard to get to a deserted flat road to allow it some room to run. Top speed on a flat road ended up around 80 kph, Drove a total of 16 kms and it seemed to be marginally better after although that could have been from getting the drivetrain warmed up. P0702 code came up a couple times.

 

Progress but well short of proper performance. No pressure tests today, ended up working on my son's 2004 330i and my daughter-in-law's '99 C280. Will try again tomorrow.

Edited by mender

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:55 AM, mender said:

I have a short list of things to check:

1. Glow plug function: picked up a third glow plug controller for testing but suspect something else is the root reason.

2. Slow idle on start, then 800 rpm for about 10 seconds then back to 400 rpm. Once the engine was getting some heat into it it didn't do that. I'd really like to have a decent description of the ECU programming so I can figure out why it goes into the slow idle cycle when cold.

3. Test drive to see if it can attain road speed. As mentioned earlier, it was suffering from a lack of power when it got parked. I can hear the turbo spool up when I lean into the throttle in neutral but obviously that doesn't mean much other than the turbo isn't seized. 

Update:

1. Put the car outside for a couple of hours while working on my daughter's car. Glow plug light came on and stayed on longer during pre-glow stage. Car started almost as well so apparently no issues with glow plug controller. Heater booster light is still on continuously despite changing the heater temp control setting to mid-temp. Conclusion: glow plug function is normal.

2. Noticed today that the drop back down to 400 rpm after 10 seconds or so coincided with the dash brightening slightly. Alternator is kicking in to recharge the battery after starting and engine can't maintain 800 rpm when cold with the extra load. Will handle it when warm. Conclusion: issue is caused by injectors and likely won't be there once the injector issue is solved.

3. See last post. Was able to attain 80 kph on a flat road but slow getting there. It was a little better today despite not getting warmed up as much as yesterday. Conclusion: cleaning the injector nozzles helped but are still the main problem.

 

Pretty confident that the car will be road worthy with good injectors. I hope to borrow a set to test that before spending a bunch of money on remans or hopefully new nozzles if I can find them.

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I personally think if you can find a wrecked car with clean looking injectors you will be able to clean them well enough to get usable injectors to get car running correctly.  IMHO.   I can't see spending what they are demanding on reman injectors without medical assistance...lol   What you must pay could buy another parts car.  Keep checking wreckers for good clean looking injectors and keep your fingers crossed.

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The latest:

I am able to source new nozzles and bought a set of three to test on my car. Installation time was about one hour and that includes removing the injectors, replacing the old nozzles, installing the new fire rings and reinstalling the injectors. The results: the car starts and runs very well now, took it for a short test drive and got up to 110 kph without issue and throttle left to go, so I assume that the power is back to normal. I just rebuilt the engine and the car has been sitting for probably ten years so I'll get everything sorted first and then do acceleration testing later.

 

The original nozzles in my 81,000 km 2006 CDi and the spare set that I bought had rust pitting around the base and I suspect in the orifices, causing them to fail the flow test. I found that a simple visual test showed quite a difference between the old nozzles and the new ones. After undoing the nozzle cap and removing the nozzle, I sprayed WD-40 through the nozzle using the straw to reach in and seal against the internal surface. A quick spritz resulted in one and maybe two reasonable sprays from the possible five holes and a couple more weak sprays. The new nozzles of course had five even healthy sprays, and it took a noticeably shorter time for the pressure of the spritz to drop. No need for sophisticated test equipment to see the difference!

 

For those who would be interested in a little DIY, I can procure more new nozzle sets through my engine building business. Price for three new Bosch nozzles and three fire rings will be $395 CDN plus shipping and applicable taxes. I suspect that a lot of the CDi injectors from the 2005-2006 cars are suffering the same fate as both my sets, with rust in the orifices and the resulting loss of  flow and power and, as in my case, hard/no starting.

 

Just doing the nozzles is a lot cheaper than getting the injectors rebuilt. PM me if interested.

 

 

Edited by mender
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Again excellent news, I want some...lol
Sign me up!

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Did a trial highway run in poor weather conditions to see what my wife can expect on a typical Alberta winter day.  A cold front moved in from the north so we of course headed into the wind. Actually, the wind was a little off to one side so the gusts were making the car nervous, as were the sections of highway that had grooves in them from large trucks. 

 

Maintaining 110 kph into the 50 kph+ wind was doable in sixth but only when the road was flat. A little easier on the way back. The round trip was 149.4 kms and took 8.36 litres so not great at 5.6l/100 kms or 50.5 mpg. Ambient temp was -6 C, the engine is still pretty fresh so a bit more internal friction, and I don't think running the winter tires at 29/32 psi is quite high enough. Winter diesel from the local generic gas station, two adults in the car, haven't checked the wheel alignment, etc. so I'm thinking that this will be close to the lowest fuel efficiency that we'll get.

 

All in all, the test drive was successful, some minor things to tweak but overall in very good condition as might be expected with only 81,000 kms.

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I run my snows at 32 psi and yes before you tell me too hard, they are a stiff ride on uneven pavement!!!   Even the simplest cracks can be jaring...but the fuel economy is better.  imho.  imho you will get better MPGs after it settles in than what you are getting at the moment. I can usually easily average below 4.6  at those speeds depending upon the head winds of course. A strong head wind will destroy the MPGs....and that is to be expected. I also drive the car with a single finger or two and allow it to drive within the lane because constantly correcting it is nausiating to say the least for me.  I simply allow it to float like a bike will when in the wind. Unless a strong sideways gust it usually falls back in line and well within the lines of the road. It also stops the sudden jerking of trying to constantly correct your steering.  I took the wife a while to get used to allowing this to happen without saying something...lol.

I haven't been out in mine yet when there is deep snow on the highways to experience deep tire tracks it will follow. But on snow covered roads lets say with an inch or two at most it drives very well at speed. 

I did go out onto Lake Simcoe two days ago just to see what it was like.....I got a few hundred feet out before turning around.....but the thought of simply ripping around out there did pop into my mind....lol.  I have seen too many cars and trucks either windshield deep or completely submerged to now enjoy the thrill of the drive out there. Wrong tool for the job, either sled or ATV .....from now on.

 

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