Tires size/rims/using front rims all around

[LooseLugNuts 557]

so...i really hope this info isnt already posted somewhere but i just popped a rear tire a few days ago and am wondering if anyone has info regarding using all four tires of same size on front rims in all corners (ive been needing to replace all 4 for quite a while now)

 

i currently have the standard 450 narrow front with stock 145  and wide rears with stock 175 but am thinking i could save some money by maybe putting 165 all around?..will something like 165/60 r15 fit the narrow 450 front rims?...my spare rims that im thinking to use on rear are 451 fronts and look a bit wider

 

any thoughts or advice? (other than just saying replace them with original sizes)

 

so basically im asking has anyone ran narrows on all 4?..and if so what is the best size to use while keeping both fitment and cost in thought

 

or is this just an all around bad idea?..advice?

 

i have 2 sets of original 450 rims and 1 set of 451 to work with ......which i know the 451 rears are useless without spacers (rub on shock)

 

 

 

edit: main reason this idea of all four on fronts is because ive been running the 451 front rim/tire for 2 days now as my spare to replace the popped rear one and havent noticed anything different in handling or esp/abs 

 

also if this topic is discussed already please feel free to post a link to it or even a snarky sarcastic response is fine..i have A.D.D. and when i search for things my head scrambles it all into a frustrating mess

Edited October 5, 2017 by LooseLugNuts

[tolsen 630]

I’ve been thinking same as you. 

Max tyre width for a 4” front rim is 165. Minimum for a rear 5.5” rim is 165. 

Fitting 165/60R15 all around should therefore work. 

https://www.evilution.co.uk/index.php?menu=wheels&mod=585

[tolsen 630]

Of course I have no info regarding how the car will handle so please test it out and let us know. 

[Huronlad 186]

I run 4 145/65R15 tire in the winter on 450 steel fronts. 

 

Are all the wheels steel wheels that you have?  451 rears could be mounted on the front of a 450, you could shop for either 185 or 195 tires, more selection, possibly better pricing.

[tolsen 630]

Huronlad, did your Smart handle ok with those wheels and how was the ride?

[Huronlad 186]

The ride is slightly softer than stock, that could be more due to tire construction then sizing.  Handling is similar to stock, car still under steers.  On dry roads it is easier to break the rear tires free under power. 

[tolsen 630]

A softer more comfortable ride is what I want. 

[lebikerboy 96]

Purchase a 453...

[LooseLugNuts 557]

2 hours ago, tolsen said:

I’ve been thinking same as you. 

Max tyre width for a 4” front rim is 165. Minimum for a rear 5.5” rim is 165. 

Fitting 165/60R15 all around should therefore work. 

https://www.evilution.co.uk/index.php?menu=wheels&mod=585

 

thank you..i was hoping you would reply

should i use 4 450 fronts or do you think its ok to use 450 fronts on the front and the 451 fronts one the rear of a 450?

 

 

2 hours ago, Huronlad said:

I run 4 145/65R15 tire in the winter on 450 steel fronts. 

 

Are all the wheels steel wheels that you have?  451 rears could be mounted on the front of a 450, you could shop for either 185 or 195 tires, more selection, possibly better pricing.

 

i have the 4 original steel rims for 450...plus a second set of steel for 450...and another set of 4 steel for a 451 but i think the 451 fronts are a bit wider than the 450 ones (they are in storage and not available right now to confirm)

 

id never even thought about 451 steel rears on the front..i just know they dont fit the back..thanks for letting me know theres a second option 

 

8 minutes ago, lebikerboy said:

Purchase a 453...

 

thanks but no thanks..im so broke right now its probably going to be a hunt for good used tires instead of new

Edited October 5, 2017 by LooseLugNuts

[tolsen 630]

18 minutes ago, lebikerboy said:

Purchase a 453...

A Renault!

[booneylander 37]

So here's my couple of cents: 

I upsized all 4 tires a while back, but the front were like a 1.8% upsize while the rears were like a 0.4% upsize. I noticed that in some rare situations I would get a tiny "bzz bzz" of ABS from the traction control when turning and going over a bump just so. I attributed this to the variation in wheel speed caused by the different tire sizes. That being said we managed to put some 40k km on them and had no issues. Now the rears are worn out. Interestingly, with the front still having much tread and the rears being essentially bald, thus a greater difference in rolling diameters, I haven't noticed any intrusion from the traction control system. So maybe it was a fluke when I had originally put them on, some other system that wasn't working 100%, or some combination of steering angle sensor, yaw sensor, wheel speeds, each just being slightly out of whack, who knows. So maybe the difference in size is irrelevant unless it was a huge difference. I've run all kinds of different combos of bigger and smaller fronts/rears on several different cars and haven't come across the same situation.

I had thought about doing 4 front wheels for winters, where the narrower tire would help with traction. 

My hesitations are as follows:

 

1. There is only a small selection of tires that will fit the smaller front rim, whereas the rear rims fit a much wider variety of tires. I keep an eye out for tires on sale and can often pick up rear tires at half off or more, making them often close to $50 a tire. The front however I have a much more difficult time finding on sale, combined with less selection, means no matter how you slice it I usually end up having to pay $90-120 per tire. That savings alone makes it worth running the fatter rear rims, not to mention, if you really wanted to be cheap, you can often find decent used rear-sized tires on Kijiji for like $20-40 per tire. The front sizes almost never come up.

 

2. The 450 rears have -1mm offset. The fronts have offsets in the 20-30mm range (same as 451 fronts/rears). So when putting the front wheels on the back, the centerline of your tire will be in some cases nearly 30mm inboard of stock. Meaning you would end up with nearly 60mm less track width in the rear. Handling issues from that? Maybe, maybe not, you might not even know until you encountered an emergency situation and had to make a brisk maneuver, which isn't when I would want to find out that I had a handling issue like a significantly greater tendency to flip over. You could run spacers.

I wonder if the camber wear would be less pronounced if using skinnier tires on the back. I would guess it should be, but I'm spoiled because I have a tire machine so I routinely flip the tires on the wheels to even out the wear, so it's never really been an issue for me.
 

Edited October 6, 2017 by booneylander

[booneylander 37]

14 hours ago, LooseLugNuts said:

i have the 4 original steel rims for 450...plus a second set of steel for 450...and another set of 4 steel for a 451 but i think the 451 fronts are a bit wider than the 450 ones (they are in storage and not available right now to confirm)

The 451 front steels ARE bigger than the 450 front steels. The 450s being 3.5" and the 451s being 4.5". Rear steels are all 5.5".

Edited October 6, 2017 by booneylander

[Huronlad 186]

54 minutes ago, booneylander said:

 

2. The 450 rears have -1mm offset. The fronts have offsets in the 20-30mm range (same as 451 fronts/rears). So when putting the front wheels on the back, the centerline of your tire will be in some cases nearly 30mm inboard of stock. Meaning you would end up with nearly 60mm less track width in the rear. Handling issues from that? Maybe, maybe not, you might not even know until you encountered an emergency situation and had to make a brisk maneuver, which isn't when I would want to find out that I had a handling issue like a significantly greater tendency to flip over. You could run spacers.
 

 

A 40 mm narrower rear track, does not lead to dangerous handling.  Travelling through heavy snow is in fact improved as the rears better match up to the path of the front wheels.

[LooseLugNuts 557]

i was also thinking narrow on 4 would be good for winter but im fairly certain im going to try the 451 rears on the front (someone said that would work) and keep the rears same but go up to 185...mostly because the 185 seem easier to get compared to 165

 

i also have a tire machine (fmc 8500) so that makes it easier to try ...and once im happy with fitment ill just have to take them in somewhere for balancing

 

i think i seen somewhere that said 185/60 r15 will fit ok 

[Huronlad 186]

The 185/60R15 works on a 451 but I'm fairly certain is too tall for a 450.

[houseofdiesel 9]

I have run in summer all four wheels 145's. It handles fine, I have tested it out pretty hard in cornering and on gravel roads. It is a chore on heavy cross wind days, it moves more. Fuel economy and taking off is much improved. I did not have any traction control/ESP/ABS issues. The car feels less planted, I was hoping for less understeer but not the case. My car is not exposed to salt, summer driven only and very low mileage (under 40k). 2006 cdi cabrio. I happen to have about 16 wheels and tires, kijiji is great when things are cheap so experimenting all the time. I never have to buy new tires...

[booneylander 37]

21 hours ago, Huronlad said:

 

A 40 mm narrower rear track, does not lead to dangerous handling.  Travelling through heavy snow is in fact improved as the rears better match up to the path of the front wheels.

While I agree the difference is small, a narrower rear track does increase a car's tendancy to oversteer (not really an issue with the smart), and increases body roll as the moment arm between the car's center of gravity and contact patch is decreased.

I was just considering all the variables.

[LooseLugNuts 557]

16 hours ago, Huronlad said:

The 185/60R15 works on a 451 but I'm fairly certain is too tall for a 450.

 

i found this one (post #10) where a member says they worked fine ...and its in the 450 section but now i see he states 08 which is a 451...

 

i wouldnt have noticed that ...thanks for saving me some trouble

 

does anyone know for sure what non-oddball size would be best to put on all 4 if i decide to use the stock rear steel wheels on the rear and the 451 rear steel wheels on the front? 

Edited October 7, 2017 by LooseLugNuts

[Huronlad 186]

185/55r15 is only marginally larger than 175/55r15, so they really should work without issue.

[darren 192]

Smarts originally had the same wheels at all four corners, but they rolled over too easily. The rear tires were made wider to help with the stability. You could maybe run skinny front wheels and tires all around, but you might have to offset the rear wheels a bit to keep the car stable in corners.

[LooseLugNuts 557]

ive abandoned the idea of using fronts all around and am going to go with 4 rears instead ,,,after hearing that my 451 rear rims will fit the front of a 450 (i sure hope thats right)

 

i picked up a set of 4 almost new continental extreme winter contact 185/55 R15 yesterday for just $150 (gotta love kijiji)

 

havent mounted them yet but i did grab my 451 rear steel wheels out of my storage place and they are 5.5 ET22

 

im going to mount them myself (i have a tire machine) then if they fit ok ill take them off and bring them in for balancing

 

only info i can find about the always mentioned "roadster rims" is 5.5 with ET24 so im assuming 2mm offset difference will really make no difference

 

 

and I thank you all for your thoughts and knowledge

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by LooseLugNuts

[booneylander 37]

Please be sure to report back on the fitment of the 185s on 451 rears at the front of the car. I found 165/60-15s on 4"/ET27 to be a real tight squeeze, but maybe the different offset helps. I'm very curious to know how they'd fit.

[LooseLugNuts 557]

they seem to rub a bit on turns...i will have to shim out the front plastics a bit...i think it rubs on the black part that is connected below the fenders across the front...

 

probably wouldnt rub if i i chose a summer tire but these ones are pretty chunky

 

 

if i were to start over id try 175/55 all around

 

so far it seems to rub at the 10 o'clock position of fender lip when looking at driver wheel and 2 oclock position when looking at passenger wheel during turn and during compression/heavy braking

 

i always found my headlights to be low maybe my springs are shorter than stock?..they were broken when i bought it and replaced them with lesjofors springs..

 

for now i stuffed some foam between the front clip and bumper to hold it out and up enough ..and left out the 2 front bolts under the grill.....until i can get in there and see if there is a better solution

 

i should also mention my driver side front kissed a snowbank once so maybe my fenders are not exactly in factory position

Edited October 13, 2017 by LooseLugNuts

[booneylander 37]

So here's a tidbit for the day. Was doing a tire shuffle around today and I had some 195/65-15s kicking around. I mounted them on stock 450 steelie rears. I also mounted some 155/60-15 fronts on stock 450 front steelies, and put them on the car. 

The 195/65-15 rears are HUGE. I doubt I could have squeezed anything bigger than these into the rear wheel wells. But they fit and didn't rub. 

When I took the car for a spin to see how it went, I didn't get half a km up the road before the dash lit up like a christmas tree, the ESP light, ABS light, and (!) brake light all came on. Interestingly, the speedometer stopped working and went to 0 while moving. I got back and read the codes and there were about 5 different codes set, all relating to "both front wheel speed sensors bad signal", "CANBUS wheel speed sensor fault" etc

So the big difference in tire sizes was enough to upset the ESP module. The 195/65-15 rears are just over 10% larger than stock while the 155/60-15 fronts are just a hair under stock size. So maybe 10% divergeance is where the ESP module draws the line? 

Anyway, gonna have to mount up some 165/60-15 fronts and see what happens, as that should bring the size difference delta to just over 8%. Or perhaps some 175/55-15s on some 451 rear steels on the front.

Edited October 13, 2017 by booneylander

[tolsen 630]

I’ve been told less than 4% is max front to  rear difference in roll diameter.