new starter installed, but wont start

[Sydney 218]

As I figured. I replaced the fried starter with a new one (AC Delco with a lifetime warranty). 

But my smart still won't start. Not a sputter or anything. So I guess I will start by assuming it's a no fuel issue. (might explain the cooked starter by the previous owner) 

How should I start with the diagnosis?   I know there is no fuel filter. I can hear a pump run for about 3 seconds when I turn the key. But that's about all.

[Sydney 218]

Here are a few things I forgot to mention.

- Engine is still hanging below car. (I don't think that matters)

- Glow plugs seems to cycle fine.

- Egr and Intercooler are not hooked up, atl/water pump belt not on.

- I find engine still a little slow turning over, but mabey that's normal

- Brand new fully charged battery

- if I look in the oil cap, I can see the chain rolling when I crank, oil will splash out a bit during crank.

- 

 

[Willys 747]

Just curious, did you check and clean up all ground wires? I saw another car who's ground wire looked perfect but no conductivity!  So check the simple first, then get the chest waders on...lol.

 

[Sydney 218]

25 minutes ago, Willys said:

Just curious, did you check and clean up all ground wires? I saw another car who's ground wire looked perfect but no conductivity!  So check the simple first, then get the chest waders on...lol.

 

I made and installed a 4 Guage ground right from the battery to a Trans bolt. 

[tolsen 630]

First thing to check is if alternator has seized since you state engine is cranking slowly on starter. 

 

Next check if there is fuel reaching high pressure fuel pump. Perhaps check fuel pressure if you have a gauge. Should be 2 to 2.5 bar. 

 

Do not use gauge to measure rail pressure as pressure is very high. Check rail pressure when cranking using diagnostics or measure signal from rail pressure sensor with multimeter. 

Signal voltage about 0.5 volt ignition on. 

When cranking to start perhaps about 1.4 volt. 

 

Could be engine speed sensor is faulty or engine is low on compression. 

[tolsen 630]

I see you have run a heavy ground lead all the way from battery to transmission.  Hope that is not the only ground from battery.  Chassis must be grounded too.

[Sydney 218]

3 hours ago, tolsen said:

I see you have run a heavy ground lead all the way from battery to transmission.  Hope that is not the only ground from battery.  Chassis must be grounded too.

yes,  chassis ground is still connected.  i ran my new 4 guage ground from the chassis ground bolt next to the battery.  i also made a new 4 guage ground from the battery to the chassis ground stud.

so i can 100% rule out a bad ground issue.

[Sydney 218]

4 hours ago, tolsen said:

First thing to check is if alternator has seized since you state engine is cranking slowly on starter. 

 

Next check if there is fuel reaching high pressure fuel pump. Perhaps check fuel pressure if you have a gauge. Should be 2 to 2.5 bar. 

 

Do not use gauge to measure rail pressure as pressure is very high. Check rail pressure when cranking using diagnostics or measure signal from rail pressure sensor with multimeter. 

Signal voltage about 0.5 volt ignition on. 

When cranking to start perhaps about 1.4 volt. 

 

Could be engine speed sensor is faulty or engine is low on compression. 

the Alternator is siezed  (but i took the belt off).

unfortunately i have no fuel pressure guage. is there any other way i can check the fuel?   mabey just taking a line off somewhere?

 

[Willys 747]

Can we simply crank open not remove the fuel rail connection just to see IF fuel is being delivered and maybe by how much of a squirt the pressure?  Yes I know highly accurate but better than nothing, maybe?

I have forgotten, have you ever seen this engine run? If so when and how long ago?  Hmmmmm.....a spare car would be a good thing about now to be able to swap parts back and forth from to see it they make any difference....wouldn't it..lol

 

[tolsen 630]

It is not advisable and unnecessary to touch high pressure side unless you are replacing parts.

 

Measure voltage between signal and ground on rail pressure sensor when cranking and when engine is stationary.

 

Buy a pressure gauge if you do not have one.  Does Canadian Tire not sell them?

 

How about reading engie fault codes?

[Willys 747]

Just curious, will car kick out codes if the engine isn't running, instantly.....The reason I even suggest this is when we clear engine codes for emmission testing then drive to test facility, it allows test to be done after engine or system is ready, but before the engine actually kicks a code. So wondering if codes will kick out after being errased but before it being running so to speak?   That is for a simple reader.   ????   Sounds like they should but...please excuse me for asking stupid question..lol...

Would simply cranking the engine deliver enough information to set the codes?

 

[Sydney 218]

2 hours ago, Willys said:

Can we simply crank open not remove the fuel rail connection just to see IF fuel is being delivered and maybe by how much of a squirt the pressure?  Yes I know highly accurate but better than nothing, maybe?

I have forgotten, have you ever seen this engine run? If so when and how long ago?  Hmmmmm.....a spare car would be a good thing about now to be able to swap parts back and forth from to see it they make any difference....wouldn't it..lol

 

yes, a parts car would come in handy right about now.

no, i have never seen this car run.  stupid of me to buy it...  

 

[tolsen 630]

Fuel rail pressure sensor sits at right hand end of rail.

[Sydney 218]

1 minute ago, tolsen said:

Fuel rail pressure sensor sits at right hand end of rail.

Thank you,  i'm heading to my garage now to check this.

[tolsen 630]

Rail pressure whilst cranking to start is higher than pressure at idle. 

[Willys 747]

What about crank position sensor....?   I am operating under the influence of a partial migrane and thus it's meds so please excuse me if this has already been suggested and dealt with....

Edited October 7, 2018 by Willys

[Sydney 218]

just a thought,  if my car had a bad injector,  would it run and just be rough?   i cant see my no start  (not even a sputter) being an injector problem.

 

[tolsen 630]

Should start and run with a single bad injector. Won’t if you have three bad ones. 

How did you get on reading rail pressure sensor voltage signal?

[Sydney 218]

59 minutes ago, tolsen said:

Should start and run with a single bad injector. Won’t if you have three bad ones. 

How did you get on reading rail pressure sensor voltage signal?

Tolsen i have been not feeling the best for the last few days.  energy is up today, so i'm going to get that reading from the pressure sensor and will let you know.

[Sydney 218]

Tolsen I just checked the rail pressure sensor.   It is just as you said. 

.5 volt with the ignition on

1.39 volt during crank

When I shut the key off, I hear a relay click and it goes to 0 volts.

So back to square one...

[tolsen 630]

That concludes there is enough fuel pressure to start engine. 

We do not know if injectors inject fuel. 

This engine does not have cam

position sensor but works that out by measuring changes in angular acceleration of engine as it rotates around powered by starter.  Therefore good working engine speed sensor is essential to synchronise engine.  Faulty engine speed sensor does normally not trigger any engine fault code. Find a way to check engine speed sensor and you may be nearer to fixing your no start problem.  

[Sydney 218]

I wonder where that is and how to check it? I will start looking thru some older posts.  

The tach does go up to close to 1000 RPM while cranking.   If that means anything.

[tolsen 630]

That i conclude means engine speed sensor is good. 

Now check engine compression. 

[Sydney 218]

That might be where I get stuck. I have no access to a compression gauge. Do you have any tricks or methods to get somewhat of a compression test done without a gauge? 

[Sydney 218]

I was just looking at a few old topics. I getting a little worried. I can't hear any pucking noise from the intake when turning it over. ( I have the egr intake hose off, because I removed the intercooler to change the starter). I don't think I have any compression at all...

I am going to remove the intake hose from the egr valve.

What about just holding my hand over the intake and see if there is any suction while cranking???

Or removing the valve cover and having a look to see what's going on under there???

Remember, I have never heard this car run. It might not have run for years.