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smartzuum

Let's discuss PHEV offerings on the market

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I was once upon a time looking at the possibility of a Mitsubishi PHEV. I quickly determined on my own that a 54 km range was in sufficient to justify the price premium no matter how many discounts, rebates and incentives I could gather. (BC and Federal Incentives on this vehicle are $2500 each, FYI)

 

THEN... in some related research, I found THESE two videos which confirmed my suspicions, and they were quite the entertaining watch... enjoy!

 

 

and this one too

 

 

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What you actually want to have comments...lol.


I love this guy....lol

Don't know anything about him or if what he says is precise or just bananas...? But his way of explaining it is priceless...lol.



So, is he right...?   And IF so, what does that do to the idea of a juiced up vehicle make any sense at all...lol

 

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Comments on PHEV offerings, sure.....  Except this morning I will not be here for comments as I am going to go and vote for a replacement for the retiring Mark Warawa in Langley-Aldergrove. I have worn a lot of hats over the last decade, this is but one of them. Also will be out tonight looking at a Mazda 6 Sports Wagon - a 2006, original owner, manual transmission and just 139k with all service records.... should probably come home with me.  It'll be a spare, pleasure use only mobile if it does, but a friend of mine will likely be it's next home in six months time... he's using a Camry of mine right now which COULD become a scrap it car for $6000 IF I end up with an electric in the fleet this fall. Which will not be a PHEV! ;) 

It's all in, or keep burning hydro-carbons.

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Until the rest of the planet starts doing it in a major way I have zero interest in stopping. Plus they must deal with range or it will keep us country folks restricted to the country unless we make a simple drive into the city a vacation destination.

 

 

The problem is, they just haven't figured it all out yet and they want us to test their vehicles for them until they find the magic formula that solves range and such.   When they do the whole planet will follow suit and switch but until then...never going to happen no matter how much carbon tax they place on fossil fuels...imho.  Plus if they keep up this act of taxing their citizens to death things will change for the better real soon!

 

 

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PHEVs have short range, but a lot of EVs are coming out with 300+ km range. I may consider a full EV, but not a PHEV.

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I wonder, if we all changed over or a 50% amount of us did, could the hydro supply structure as it is support it without browning out...?   

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50 minutes ago, Willys said:

I wonder, if we all changed over or a 50% amount of us did, could the hydro supply structure as it is support it without browning out...?   

 

Who knows, depends on the province. That will not happen overnight. But in BC, over 20 years, so they say.

 

More interested in NOT discussing the political side of electric vehicles in general, but specifically Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles.... vehicles that still have hydro-carbon burners of some sort on board, and some battery capacity.... Why, or why not are they good? What is the payback? Which models make the most sense? Etc....

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Didn't that clip explain it all pretty clearly....amount of energy produced /used etc etc....off set by cost differences...?

Sounded sort of semi accurate no..?

 

 

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the other day I typed out about a page and a half long reply to the above videos that smartzuum posted. I hit the submit button and the website crashed.....I am thinking the government didn't like what I had to say about their electric vehicle conspiracy. remember, you are only paranoid if they really are not after you....lol

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I wonder how much more range PHEVs would get if they weren’t lugging around all that engine and fuel all the time. Or replace all that weight and space with more batteries. 

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You didn't watch the video then eh..?   Didn't he comment of that also...?

Just admit the technology just isn't here yet...simple.....once they figure it out then fine but until then....it's a non starter for anyone who lives 30 minutes outside a city centre....imho.

 

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I know the thread is about PHEV's, but until they come up with a GOOD working PHEV, I'll pass 

 

When the infrastructure is there for EV's, I will consider one.  Until that day arrives, I will chug along in my smoky old diesel smarts or my 30 year old gas Honda.

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22 hours ago, Willys said:

You didn't watch the video then eh..?   Didn't he comment of that also...?

Just admit the technology just isn't here yet...simple.....once they figure it out then fine but until then....it's a non starter for anyone who lives 30 minutes outside a city centre....imho.

 

 

Good, we know that!

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The EV that I would consider is a used BMW i3 with a range extender.  The range extender is a 600 cc modified motorcycle engine.  If you do the calculations like the video guy, it probably isn't a good buy, but it is a nice car.  There are a few available in the Vancouver area on autotrader.ca.

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A friend had an i3 (not sure if they had the REX) and it was a beautiful car inside. I’ve read that the range extender programming for North America was not very good.

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I'm not a fan of PHEV.  Its neither fish not fowl.  Nothing so pointless as making short to medium journeys dragging round a quarter a tonne or more of engine and gearbox that isn't needed - that's horrifically wasteful.  Great for longer journeys when the ICE motor can do the work, but you're then dragging round a hundred kilos of battery + epicyclic transmission that arent't being properly utilised.  However they're used they're e environmentally quite inefficient in that regard, which totally u determines the purpose to begin. with.

 

Step beyond PHEV into the realms of full electric but, with a lightweight range extender engine and it starts to make a little more sense.  Nevertheless, as battery and power management technology matures PHEV is quickly becoming increasingly redundant.  The Netherlands is only 5.5 years away from a total ban on car sales of cars with ICE engines of any kind, and other European countries arent far behind, so was was barely relevant to begin with will become totally obsolete in less than one model cycle.

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Chopper...I'm curious, what about people who come over for a vacation and need to rent a vehicle to get around with? The distances I need to get from the airport to my family farm is 4 hours.......what happens then if they are phazing out petrol engines? I can't be expected to rent a car for a lesser distance only to have to wait until it recharges then set off again....can I..?  That's simply insane...!   OR am I reading this all wrong? They will still allow petrol powered vehicles but no hybrids????
I don't understand how they can expect any type of delivery company to survive if solely on electricity or even Taxi services? UBER...etc etc....nothing makes sense?

 

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People are simply going to have to adapt, and that's the bottom line.  Sense simply doesn't come into it.

 

I'm in my 50's and still cycle more miles a year than most people drive (172.1 miles since sunday) so I'm well ahead of the game.  Society has brought this upon themselves, so I've little sympathy when society objects and starts the sentence with, "what about....?"

Edited by Chopper

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The whole issue is rediculous.....there is no way you can demand this to be so....how will delivery companies get produce from one depot to another and make their deliveries using only electric powered vehicles? They are no where near this possibility battery wise. Car rental companies will need to double their fleets to have jump spots for those who need to cover greater distances to get timely to their destinations. What about long haul trucking? 
The major arguement for this comes from people such as yourself who live their lives within a small circle distance wise. Even in England people must get further distances than what typical battery ranges can deliver......so unless they all of a sudden find the magic formula it'll never happen and they will be forced to make exceptions. The whole transportation industry isn't anywhere near this mark to be able to switch over to only electric powered vehicles.      Not to forget countries that are hundreds times larger than the smaller countries of Europe....10 Englands they say fit inside just Ontario alone!     So how will they get services done when the distances could be at least 10 fold? Can you imagine the added costs associated with having to stop deliveries and either wait, reload, change power units, recharge, or whatever other time restraints this may cause to companies. Prices are high enough already that many can't afford to buy what they need on a daily basis. IMHO, this is a pipe dream of the few who think we must do this NOW to save our planet.....when the biggest polluter's are still pumping out far more emissions than any amount of electrical vehicle could off set in their entire life spans.   
Don't get me wrong, if the electrical industry had all it's ducks in a straight line and had everything set up ready and working, proven....them sure why not......and I mean that in a way that you didn't require swapping out vehicles to get to work or to an airport to go somewhere just a simple example.  In today's world so many commute long distances just to be able to afford to live in a house comfortably and still have that good or nice job. A job they trained for  but the only place it's located is within city limits lets say but the price of housing is so high you just can't afford it. We are simply pricing out 90 % of the population forcing them to change this one thing imho.....the added costs to get to work, alone will force people to move away and start again OR the companies will be forced to pay their employees far more which trickles down to higher costs everywhere else to make up for it, with the same results.   

The idea is good but it's simply not a capable sensible solution...YET....and to put a date on it before they have developed the technology is rediculous to say the least!   Get the tech there first then work the kinks out......not say this is what's happening get used to it...because that won't work out well.

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1 hour ago, Willys said:

The whole issue is rediculous.....there is no way you can demand this to be so....how will delivery companies get produce from one depot to another and make their deliveries using only electric powered vehicles?

...

The idea is good but it's simply not a capable sensible solution...YET....and to put a date on it before they have developed the technology is rediculous to say the least!   Get the tech there first then work the kinks out......not say this is what's happening get used to it...because that won't work out well.

 

Your assumptions and assertions are based on ignorance and simplistic thinking.   You seem to believe that adoption of EVs has to be like a switch.  On or off.    Which is just foolish. 

 

The transition away from internal combustion engines, like all technology transitions, starts off slowly and then accelerates dramatically as production costs drop.   You may remember the personal computer revolution, or more recently the transition to mobile phones.   Both were impossible, unrealistic and unaffordable.   And yet 95% of adults now have a mobile phone with massive computing power.

 

Between 2010 and 2016 lithium ion battery costs fell 80%.   Between 2016 and today they fell another 50%.   All new EV models are coming with hundreds of kilometers of range.  While EVs are expensive, they are affordable for many car buyers today.      Those prices will continue to drop, just like in any previous technology transition.   

 

EV vendors cannot produce vehicles fast enough to meet demand.  Every vendor has wait lists that are months or even years long.  All major vendors are investing billions in securing battery supply *today*.   If you look at the sales growth of EVs in the past decade, the growth rate is about 50% per year.   ICE sales are falling or at best in the single digits. 

 

The majority of daily driving in North America is less than 50km.   All BEVs and most PHEVs on the market today will exceed that range.

 

EVs have fewer things to go wrong.  There are no oil changes, no spark plugs, no complicated transmissions.   Cheaper maintenance.

 

Electricity costs 1/4 the price of gasoline for the same distance.   The vast majority of EV charging is done overnight, when electricity supply is plentiful and cheap.   The electric grid is well able to handle EV charging.  It certainly seems to support electric stoves, which use the same kind of circuit.

 

About 50% of households have two or more vehicles.  Even if those people sometimes need to drive more than 150 km they can certainly benefit from owning an EV as their daily driver.    At a minimum that's 40% of the vehicle market. 
 

I travel to other provinces and countries in jet planes, but I don't use them on a daily basis, and I certainly wouldn't claim that I needed to own a jet.

 

Class 8 trucks are used for long haul transport.   At least four companies are bringing class 8 EV trucks to market.  They wouldn't be investing billions to do that if the tech was "impossible".    Class 1 to class 7 trucks are smaller, used for shorter delivery routes, generally within cities.   Less than 150km range is required.  75-85% of the population lives in those cities.

 

Shenzhen in China is running *all* 16,359 municipal busses on electricity, servicing a population of 12 million people.  I have a hard time believing that they have some secret technology sauce to make that possible.  

 

So while you personally may be in the tiny percentage of the population that drives 400 km per day (God help you), and lives in a remote community without electricity, 95% of the population isn't in that situation. 

 

Not only can the majority of people benefit financially today by owning and using an EV, they can help eliminate the 30-40% of CO2 emissions that are caused by transportation. 

 

And yes, our household has been driving EVs daily for over 5 years.  It does work, it is cheaper, and more than that, they are a blast to drive!

 

 

 

Edited by Blaine
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Did you miss the point  that it is going to happen in so many years like it or not, ready or not?   That alone is why I replied....everything can be evolved, but not in the time line mentioned...imho, especially in North America.  I'll bet my house and everything it'll never happen in this time frame. The infrastructure isn't there, christ it's not even mantainable for gasoline powered vehicles, it's construction season directly after salt season....they can't keep easy roads in operational condition let alone an electrical system. Simply look at the simple GO train system, how many days a week is it out of service due to weather related issues during the winter months. The whole thought you can simply force this on the country within a certain time span is rediculous. You can evolve it over decades as tech gets here. and no it's not here or we would see and own it already. It's who we are, a must have the lastest tech now society even if it's crap  and basically useless on the first edition when you compare that to a few years down the road versions. Take your example of simple cell phones.....mini high functioning computers now compared to a laptop sized clunker when they first came on board.  They evolved as everything does. Just like the planet will and has done since time started......one volcano spews out more crap than all of humanity has  and it survives that without blinking an eye....but us driving around in modern vehicles is the last straw....?   Yes in the past we polluted in a bad way but modern industry and vehicles have reduced their emissions greatly. now get the rest of the planet to the same tech position and we'll be just fine. Again it's the city dwellers who think the whole country is capable of doing the same things they do daily to carry out daily life, when it's not.
I do not drive 400 kms daily but drive over  what any electrical driven vehicle can do in a day easily besides the teslar and some days maybe over it.....and yes we have electricity...lol.  I live where most city dwellers drive to every weekend to get out of their polluted environment..it's a joke up here, they live in or under the dome of shit....sorry if that offends you but it wasn't said to offend you personally, just where you choose to live.......if they all owned electrical vehicles that would be great for me....think of the less traffic issues we experience each friday and sunday when you guys pollute our ecosystems as you come to enjoy the great out doors. Next you'll be saying that's it, no more friday night rush to your cottages? Sorry too far, so that's that, either sell up or make it a two day drive to get there...That'll work well....lol.  It is what it is....it's not changing any time soon....no matter how much you guys want it to.  Maybe in 10-20 years you may see it happen but not in 5...!   Unless and I'll admit, if they solve the range issue them sure..I see it......but who wants to buy the first edition when you know full well if you wait until they figure it out you will be able to buy a really useful machine that is basically a better version of what you now own not a step backwards until they solve it out....not me that's for sure....plus it has to be at a price point equal to what is there now....for gasoline powered vehicles.  

It's just not going to happen no matter what you really really want.....sorry.     Like i have said, figure it out first then say it has to happen.    Then I'll gladly switch also.

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