chrisj

450 600cc Gear Selection/Clutch issues

41 posts in this topic

Hi guys.

 

Although this is the 'diesel' section, it seems like this is the place to ask.

 

I've got a 450 that has gear selection issues, as follows:

- With the engine off, you can select R, N and 1.

- With the engine running, attempting to change gear results in the engine hunting as it tries and fails to engage gear.  I've not let it get that far, but I believe it'll show three bars eventually

- There aren't any engine codes or lights on

 

I ended up checking the actuator and it was stuck in position - for so long, in fact, that some of the cutouts were filled solid with corrosion, but for the bolt holes:

 

m3L4iq4.jpg

 

I cleaned all this up and lubricated the actuator with some white grease.  It was fully retracted at this point.

 

By the time I'd refitted it, there wasn't really a position where it felt like it was hitting resistance like the FQ guide suggested.  I put it somewhere what felt like the maximum and tried anyway.

 

(It's worth mentioning at this point that there was probably a stage where I turned the ignition on without the actuator attached, as I needed to put a window up.  I had read on somewhere that it might cause an issue?)

 

Anyway, I refitted it as best I could, tightened up the mounting bolts, and started it up.  It seems like the actuator fully extended to disengage the clutch when the ignition was turned on, but this is what happened when I tried to change gear:

 

https://imgur.com/ZrYwCP1

 

Since then, I couldn't figure out why the actuator was fully extended, so I checked the fork for punch through, but it looked ok (late photo, so poor quality):

 

CpgmCqK.jpg

 

 

 

It hasn't moved for a few months, so I could forgive the squeakyness for a bit of a dry/sticky bearing or clutch type issues, but I'm wondering whether this needs to turn into a gearbox off job?

 

Also, should the actuator fully retract back in and move in and out without the engine running?  

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

 

 

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You didn't open up the actuator to look inside?  If not, do so...it'll be a bugger to nicely get top back on after removing rivets  etc etc, but it can be done.....then you'll see what's corroded or not or stripped or not.   I don't remember the boot being that far in the case all the time......which makes me wonder if the fork has either been punched through or on it's way  and almost there?

Then I'll say what I tell everyone who has any issues with the car......sorry.....did you check all grounding pins on and around the engine and bodywork near it for any corrosion and that means taking each grounding pin apart and cleaning it individually, sorry again as it's a pain in the ass....lol   There is also a larger grounding strap running from engine to frame at the back.  Then check connection pins for corrosion. I know, I know.... but after sitting and not working it all gets corroded and especially near salt sea air.....EX-Pat here.

Some folks have rubbing issues with the gear selection motor wiring above the transmission area and is a known problem. Might not even be the actuator at all..?   Check all wiring related to transmission and actuator and all grounding pins.

Also, have you tried the Evilution.uk.co site yet....it's a closer site and full of technical info especially on the petrol machines.  Donate the minimum donation and be bombarded with so much information it'll send your electrical system for a loop!  It is a wierd site to navigate through at first but after a bit easy, just cross off the car types you do not have at the top left then search what you want with what you leave up as your car choice.  Kane is a good guy but demands old school politeness as he should.....when being asked questions for help and he says so up front....you get far more help using honey than vinegar as they say!

Hope this helps and I'm sure you'll get many more people here offering help if they can.

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3 hours ago, Willys said:

You didn't open up the actuator to look inside?  If not, do so...it'll be a bugger to nicely get top back on after removing rivets  etc etc, but it can be done.....then you'll see what's corroded or not or stripped or not.   I don't remember the boot being that far in the case all the time......which makes me wonder if the fork has either been punched through or on it's way  and almost there?

Then I'll say what I tell everyone who has any issues with the car......sorry.....did you check all grounding pins on and around the engine and bodywork near it for any corrosion and that means taking each grounding pin apart and cleaning it individually, sorry again as it's a pain in the ass....lol   There is also a larger grounding strap running from engine to frame at the back.  Then check connection pins for corrosion. I know, I know.... but after sitting and not working it all gets corroded and especially near salt sea air.....EX-Pat here.

Some folks have rubbing issues with the gear selection motor wiring above the transmission area and is a known problem. Might not even be the actuator at all..?   Check all wiring related to transmission and actuator and all grounding pins.

Also, have you tried the Evilution.uk.co site yet....it's a closer site and full of technical info especially on the petrol machines.  Donate the minimum donation and be bombarded with so much information it'll send your electrical system for a loop!  It is a wierd site to navigate through at first but after a bit easy, just cross off the car types you do not have at the top left then search what you want with what you leave up as your car choice.  Kane is a good guy but demands old school politeness as he should.....when being asked questions for help and he says so up front....you get far more help using honey than vinegar as they say!

Hope this helps and I'm sure you'll get many more people here offering help if they can.

 

I managed to clean and lube the housing and it has a strong snap to it.  Once I'd reset the plunger back to fully retracted, then refitted it at pretty much the max adjustment, it is seen to be working correctly:

https://i.imgur.com/kosKLnv.mp4

 

This is what it does when you engage gear with the engine running:

https://i.imgur.com/0iX0LGr.mp4

(The chugging around 4/5 seconds in is when I select a gear - it doesn't go in)

 

 

The fork looks 'ok' in terms of punch through, so it isn't that.

69bLX6m.jpg

 

My only remaining assumption now is clutch wear/failure.

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That's a better pic of the clutch fork, yes I agree seems fine. Did you check your wiring, grounds, rub throughs...?   Just thinking....what if you added a bit to the rod to push clutch fork just a bit further?

 Find or make a bullet to fit over rod just to check...?

 

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1 hour ago, Willys said:

That's a better pic of the clutch fork, yes I agree seems fine. Did you check your wiring, grounds, rub throughs...?   Just thinking....what if you added a bit to the rod to push clutch fork just a bit further?

 Find or make a bullet to fit over rod just to check...?

 

 

I remain cautiously convinced this is mechanical on the basis that the actuator works and it can change gear when not running, plus the audible symptoms suggest the clutch isn't disengaging.

 

The fact that the release fork looks like it came off the titanic doesn't bode well, either.  I could bodge more travel out of the actuator, but if it ended up in the flywheel there'd be bother.

 

I've ordered a full sachs pre-assembled flywheel and fork/release bearing set.  I've been through all the docs and can't find any evidence of a clutch change, nor did the adjuster look like it'd seen on recently.  It's on more than 100k miles, so I'm sure it's well overdue if it's the original

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pay attention when swapping the assembly....if i remember right its easy to install flywheel in wrong position and then it causes a no-start ...something to do with crank position sensor teeth 

 

 

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Weather's been terrible here, but thought I'd update.

 

Gearbox came off to reveal a very rusty clutch pack

neE7Ft7.jpg

 

Decided to pop the pressure plate off to actually inspect the friction plate - the friction surface was pretty worn, with noticeable step down from the inner section

WUoomCw.jpg

 

The fork and release bearing where equally rusty, and the release bearing was pretty much stuck in place, so it's not a great surprise it wasn't working well

Uas6FcK.jpg

ueYIpKQ.jpg

 

 

Part of the problem was that the grease (looked like moly) was acting more like a glue - I eventually cleaned it off with brake fluid cleaner

orkqSri.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had a look at doing it by the book, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough space between the sump and the cutout to get a socked and rachet in there, and the cutout isn't big enough for a swan neck spanner - how is this supposedly done?

 

I'd prefer not to dismantle the new clutch pack if possible, so would prefer not to do the alternative method described on fq101

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Hmmmm....just re-read the thread and have seen you ordered everything I just typed out....DOH....lol.     So I just erased it all....lol....yes your clutch was fried big time...lol.

 

Edited by Willys

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Also after mine sitting out on the bench after pressure washing it's now looking like your Titanic looking clutch .....so I also am now thinking maybe I will order a fresh new one also.   I don't know what you are asking about what nut or bolt you are trying to deal with, sorry.

 

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4 minutes ago, Willys said:

Also after mine sitting out on the bench after pressure washing it's now looking like your Titanic looking clutch .....so I also am now thinking maybe I will order a fresh new one also.   I don't know what you are asking about what nut or bolt you are trying to deal with, sorry.

 

 

No worries - it's the 3 bolts behind the flywheel that allow the .assembled clutch pack to be removed without disassembly.  I've since done a search and will probably see if I can cut down a socket to fit in place

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I use the 17 mm end of a Bacho 16/17 mm flex head socket wrench. 

0DC0B867-4EFA-43C4-95F4-6720CB322245.jpeg

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Just out of interest Chris, how many miles has your clutch done?

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6 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Just out of interest Chris, how many miles has your clutch done?

 

Car's on 104,000 and everything I've touched so far very much indicates to me that it is the original clutch.

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Managed it just now

6nj5PNG.jpgObD2B0c.jpg

 

 

 

Found a 17mm 3/8 socket from one of the cheap tat sets I have lingering around, then chopped about 10mm off the depth

 

cEaQcJs.jpg

 

 

Managed to just about fit my 3/8 bar in with it..

 

IIFDA0W.jpg

 

 

All it needed was about 15 degrees to crack it, then each came out easily using finger strength

Ege1hZZ.jpg

 

 

 

These are the measurements for the curious.  I'd have struggled and failed with it being any bigger.

bZcG4Vd.jpg

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Just a suggestion, while it's easily accessible......the hand brake cables and the bracket they connect into, I'd give it plenty of lube or even take it off and re-fresh it ......just saying...Mine was a bit like yours, but after some love it is a much better operating unit. Plus I'm going to install new cables just again easier while it all out.  One of my cables has a break in it's case. which makes me think it's half way to siezing already.

 

Thanks for the socket sizing.....I'll need that....lol.

 

Edited by Willys

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19 hours ago, Willys said:

Just a suggestion, while it's easily accessible......the hand brake cables and the bracket they connect into, I'd give it plenty of lube or even take it off and re-fresh it ......just saying...Mine was a bit like yours, but after some love it is a much better operating unit. Plus I'm going to install new cables just again easier while it all out.  One of my cables has a break in it's case. which makes me think it's half way to siezing already.

 

Thanks for the socket sizing.....I'll need that....lol.

 

 

could, but I'm a bit weary about spending money unnecessarily.  I plan on lubricating and cleaning up/painting lots while the gearbox is out, but I don't really plan on replacing anything that doesn't really warrant it.

 

It's mostly because it's not turned a wheel for me yet and I'm already a few hundred in so far!

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Over the last few days I decided to add a layer of rust-preventative (well, more than bare metal) to the new components after seeing how rusty they seem to get.  I used a red high-temp based, with a hard-wearing black top coat - you can see some of the high temp stuff underneath; it wasn't done for aesthetics, so not a great issue.

 

Some of the photos are poor-ish quality, as I was using my phone in the cold and wet!

 

 

So today's progress was to fit them.  New fork & bearing:

4lhSbl8.jpg

 

New Clutch Pack

JgthkJQ.jpg

 

I did mark the old clutch's position in relation to the "tri-wheel", but it was a bit redundant as there appears to be a notch (on my petrol one, anyway) meaning that it sort of only fits in one position anyway.  You can see the hole for it at the 6 o'clock position on the new one...

4FMiat5.jpg

 

 

I bought some M8 bar from B&Q for less than £3 and cut it into a few lengths (around 5" or so, but one I made longer to start 'hanging' the box on).  These were hand tightened into the engine to guide the gearbox on, using a jack to help hold the weight

JRT65qs.jpg

 

 

This made it seem quite easy to slot the gearbox home by hand

BKWwhuZ.jpg

 

I then fully supported the weight whilst I temporarily tightened a couple of the bolts up, and then the gearbox mount (temporarily), before replacing all the gearbox to engine bolts

y35rcY7.jpg

 

 

The Gearbox Oil filler plug also looked like it had been raised from the titanic, and was completely rounded inside, so I cut a straight edge into one side with the dremel

zuYhxfb.jpg

 

 

Which allowed me to get a good grip with some molegrips, and remove the corroded plug.  I replaced it with a new alloy job, which I think might have been a new drain plug left over from a Porsche I had a few years back.  It was pretty much exactly the same, anyway...

n2UtuON.jpg

 

 

I also fitted a new reluctor ring on the nearside, and felt like it was a good idea to throw some (optimistic) corrosion protection over that, too.   I didn't spent too long attempting to get a perfectly smooth surface as I'd already fitted the ring by this point.

9tW7piG.jpg

 

 

This was then fitted back in.

K3r5esG.jpg

 

 

It's worth noting, at this point, that I found the removal/refitting of the driveshafts to be an absolute pain on these.  The only way I found it possible to get enough clearance involved was to drop the gearbox end right down (for the nearside), or lift it right up (for the offside).

 

 

I also fitted a new wastegate and circlip, as the old one was corroded and the housing had gone brittle

ajAGgzw.jpgcbuMMIO.jpg

 

 

I then spent a bit of time cleaning everything up, including sanding the driveshafts and painting them

SkCYf0V.jpg

 

 

Still got quite a bit to refit, and the concept of it being 'fixed' is still very much theoretical still, but everything so far has been done properly, to my observations.

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Fantastic.  A nice, thorough job.  Watching  this with interest.

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1 minute ago, Chopper said:

Fantastic.  A nice, thorough job.  Watching  this with interest.

 

Thanks.  I've done quite a few in my time, but haven't taken a box out for 4 or 5 years now (went into IT instead).  I'd pre-empted the job and read up on it thoroughly, and had been nervous about doing it as I'd read it required "2 people" and several other things that made it sound like something of a nightmare...  but it's probably one of the easiest ones I've done.

 

I've had to drill out a few bolts due to them snapping through corrosion, but it's been done in the cold, wet, and dark on my own on the driveway, so not really much hassle.

 

Not that I'd put my hand up to do another anytime soon.....!

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This is why I opted to remove entire sub frame out of the car after trying to get starter out without cutting my hands off to reach bolts etc etc.....It has made removing everything so much easier as I get to use my engine picker to lift these items over using a jack like I would have had to doing it the old way from underneath. I too will not be doing this again any time soon!  Like you I have done many many engines and transmissions in my day and thought this car couldn't possibly be this bad......lol....what a mistake!  lol....It would have been easier if an engineer had designed it to actually fit a large hand down around the engine.....not the smallest child's hand if that big....augh!   So again, you will not see me putting my hand up again either....lol

Good to see you got the paint out to stop further problems in a few years time. Always nice to see someone thinking ahead. Good work.

 

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I have A/C on mine, and it seems to 'kick in', so wasn't keen on disturbing/emptying the system, so chose not to drop the subframe.

 

I would have jumped to do it if it seemed like it was easily designed for that kind of job, but a lot of videos showed some cutting/bodging to remove the engine harness and hoses.

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I simply left air pump attached to car, but mine wasn't operating and that was before I started thinking about dropping sub frame.....it was to get to water pump bracket to get starter out......like I said a nightmare...never again!   I'll pay to get air recharged for sure if I need to drop it again, far easier. plus you can change "O" rings in the air's pipes just to make them better  as that is the place most uncharge from.   Not sure why mine wasn't charged but I prefer the windows down over air con.

 I wasn't going to put it back in at all, but thought IF I ever wanted top dollar for the car after all this work it would require the air con to be in place if nothing else.

 

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I'ce not bothered recharging the air on on mine because if the weather is that warm I drop the roof anyway.

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17 hours ago, Chopper said:

I'ce not bothered recharging the air on on mine because if the weather is that warm I drop the roof anyway.

 

I have the panoramic roof on mine with black leather, which is apparently a bad combo come the summer!

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I also have the glass roof  and it nearly cooked me the first hot days so I did what I said I'd never do to another car again and tinted the windows a shade darker than legal.....especially rear facing, just for people's headlights.  It made a world of difference.....seriously worth every penny for the anti sun charateristics.   Doesn't heat up nearly as much.

 

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