Bewildered

ESP light and engine power cut

60 posts in this topic

Hi. I have read many posts on many forums but can’t find an answer to my problem.

The car is 2006 450 700cc Passion.
The car was working fine then without warning we had the following issue....

Within 5 mins drive the ESP light comes on and a complete engine power loss.

Ignition off / wait 30 seconds / on - ESP light is off, engine starts hesitantly but won’t tick over. Within 500m the ESP light comes on and complete engine power loss.

Ignition off / wait 10 mins / on - Everything runs fine for 4-5mins then ESP light comes on etc...

From cold the car will sit still and run all day long - the engine will rev freely, the fan(s) cut in and out, there is no overheat and no illuminated lights. But go for a drive and within 5 mins.... ESP light etc.

In no particular order, I have replaced....

Engine loom, alternator, starter, battery, clutch fork, clutch actuator, reluctor rings, ABS sensors, crank sensor, transmission speed sensor, transmission angle sensor, knock sensor, throttle body, map sensor, inlet temp sensor, ambient temp sensor, exhaust, both lambda sensors, timing kit (chain, sprockets, guides, tensioner), oil pump kit (chain, tensioner, sprockets), head gasket, 

There are no blown fuses in the SAM module and no apparent water damage.

The clutch and gearbox will happily learn their places, drag points, fork positions etc. No gearbox lines (horizontal or vertical) on dashboard.

Codes from OBD:

C1340 which says “ECU cannot execute torque request”

53301 “unknown”

P2056 “Actual position Of rotation angle sensor; plausibility”

These codes will reset and only come back after the ESP light has illuminated.

The alternator is a genuine Smart alternator - the part number matches the cars’ requirement on WIS.

Can anybody point me in any direction I have not tried already.... Please?

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OK, Damn....sorry for the status Hmm....you have attacked things Like do....lol...sorry.     On this car I am now a firm believer in checking every grounding pin that could be connected to your issues....there are many many of them all over the body and engine bay.  I know sounds too easy and simple for this to cause it ....I know...lol.  Just disassemble every one you find and check for the white or green corrosion and while apart file each eye connector clean and smeer dilectric grease on them all. I know, again too easy, but you will be shocked at what will cause issues with this overly sensitive electrical system this car owns. There is a large grounding strap on the rear of engine running to body, a usual issue..

Just a suggestion....is all....can't cost much to try them......damn.

 

Good luck...and welcome to the site.....

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Hi Willys, thanks for your reply and suggestion.

The engine has been out so many times the the grounding pins are virtually worn out - let alone corroded 😂

The two I am aware of are the gearbox to L engine mount and the diff to rear chassis.

I added a third directly from the alternator mounting bolt when I replaced the starter motor.

Are there others to check?

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I am aware of only four grounding points. 

 

From front to rear. 

 

1) Left side front of car. Front panels must be removed for access. 

2) Forward slightly left of starter battery. 

3) Left side slightly forward of engine access hatch. 

4) Engine earth strap from transmission to chassis aft of engine access hatch. 

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Isn't there one under drivers seat or will that be passenger's seat over there near fuel pump.....Hmmm...?  Just shooting from the hip....probably useless info....but at this point anything may help inspire you to look outside the usual spots...?

What about checking each connection plug to see if it has a break  where the connector is crimped or a pushed in pin not allowing conductivity...?  Did you say you have opened up SAM and checked all points for cold solder joints?  Also speedo electronics....and centre console wiring.....again simply shooting into the black hole of the car's electronic system. It sounds like you own a STAR to be able to teach the transmission and actuator  etc etc....or are you going after it using another tool? 

 

After re-reading your original post again and again...this only happens after the car has moved  and not if it sits. It has to be something either being jolted as in a damaged wire loosing connectivity or a sensor being tripped because of a bad signal  eg. reluctor ring issue, but you have swapped out your rings and pick ups correct.  OK, this will drive you mad, were they the correct items?  Just a thought? Could they be positioned in any way incorrectly as so not to be able to operate correctly?  If a human touches something it can get/be messed up for lack of more crude wording...lol.  I always say this, and have done more than my fair share in the past few years.....I'm getting old.  I get side tracked and simply miss things I normally wouldn't have. Again just a thought?  IF movement is the cause of this I'm sure you have checked everything that could move which could cause this, so now you must think outside that box or further into the deep. in other words stupid things normally not 100% related directly tired to it. Like a broken connection. Ground or otherwise.  Hmmmm....?   
Have you gone after the ECU and it's pins?  I had two going green in my connector.....beware as it houses loaded Capacitors and will short out , ask me how i learned this, cost me an ECU!   Sensor cleaner and a plastic brush similar to a toothbrush was what I used so as not to short anything using metal etc and in the suds I saw a small lightening flash and done deal dead ECU!  That is easy to look into and inspect if you haven't done so same as the SAM unit. IF it had run for a long time without moving I don't see it as a cold solder joint getting warm  and expanding unless it gets jolted by the movement to break the circuit...maybe...?????   

 

I know this feeling sort of....after installing a lift in my beater and doing everything right so to speak, I was getting a strong vibration that sounded just like an engine miss, it turned out to be a bracket making contact with the differential I couldn't see or feel until I went after something completely separate to this issue.....then it was looking straight at me! I spent weeks searching for an electrical issue or mechanical issue rebuilding everything only to find it was a contact issue.....talk about frustration to the max!  Now the same car is giving me countless hours of perfect use and fantastic economy and this is supposed to be my winter beater!  So do not give up as I bet this may be the same sort of thing seeing as you have done almost the same things I had done and none helped me either.....look past the usual.....imho.

 

Sorry to ramble, good luck, keep posting your trials good or bad.

 

 

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Thank you Tolsen and Willys. Please don’t apologise for rambling.... I do some of my best thinking when I’m spewing my guts into the keyboard!

All the parts I have replaced have been from another (working) Smart we have - or have been purchased and “checked“ on the working car before being fitted to the poorly one.

Dodgy connectors with engine / gearbox... all sensors and loom have been replaced. ECU pins have been given a visual inspection with the magnifier on my phone’s video.

I will be disassembling the front end of the car shortly (when the rain stops) - somebody else has told me to look at the ABS pump (wasn’t sure I had ABS, but I guess I’ll soon find out!) so I’ll have the soft underbelly of the beast removed and I’ll check out those earth points. I’ve also got a new brake light switch and accelerator pedal to fit.... just in case.

The same guy that suggested ABS, BLS and accelerator pedal also thought about the ECU, too. I’m going to buy a used ECU from eBay. My fake STAR won’t programme ECUs - but his will.

I don’t want to use the ECU from the working car in case the problem with the broken car is burning out the ECU ‘cos then I’d be left with 2 dead cars :-(

If the “new” ECU doesn’t fix the problem I will then try programming the old ECU to the working car - thus eliminating the ECU as the cause.

If the “new” ECU or any of the other stuff I try solves the problem then I’ll let you know.

I’m keeping a close eye on this topic so if you guys or anybody else has any pointers I’d love to hear them - no matter how weird they sound. I’m a desperate man and willing to clutch at straws.

Thanks again

Bewildered

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Water ingress in the Sam? Clutching at straws.

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Hi Chopper thanks for your input.

I’ve not had the SAM apart but I have had it out. It looks dry.
I’ve had all the fuses out, tested, inspected them and the holes into which they fit - same with the multiplugs and everything looks OK.

There’s no water in the footwell or (as far as I can see) any condensation.

How “safe” is it to take the SAM apart? I have oodles of mechanical and electrical experience but I’m VERY poor on electronics. I don’t want to f@@k up a SAM ‘cos they’re very expensive !!

Are there any “Jack-in-the-box” type springs or connectors or “booby-traps” that I’m going to encounter? Or charged capacitors / sensitive electronic components?

If it’s just relays, connectors and wires I’d be ok :-)

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1 hour ago, Bewildered said:

Hi Chopper thanks for your input.

I’ve not had the SAM apart but I have had it out. It looks dry.
I’ve had all the fuses out, tested, inspected them and the holes into which they fit - same with the multiplugs and everything looks OK.

There’s no water in the footwell or (as far as I can see) any condensation.

How “safe” is it to take the SAM apart? I have oodles of mechanical and electrical experience but I’m VERY poor on electronics. I don’t want to f@@k up a SAM ‘cos they’re very expensive !!

Are there any “Jack-in-the-box” type springs or connectors or “booby-traps” that I’m going to encounter? Or charged capacitors / sensitive electronic components?

If it’s just relays, connectors and wires I’d be ok :-)

OK, you haven't had the SAM out yet....!..Damn man....that is your next step....period.   No springs or things ready to destroy it at all. Simply unplug everything AFTER disconnecting the battery so as not to spark the main lead into the SAM. It's a big pin on top of the unit, 10mm nut if memory serves me right. It only comes apart one way and thus back together the same fashion.  You can't really damage it unless you go at it at warp speeds. Once you get it out, simply lift front side then fumble with rear clips and it'll be down enough to get all plugins out, same for them all different so no mess ups. Then the large positive pin, then it's out and ready to be opened up. Take note of the two or so clip on fuses on the left side of it as in where exactly they came from and what colour they are. Take plenty of pics to help.  Now slowly unclip all clips to separate the two halves......it'll unfold to reveal the innereds......of your problems. You'll see a row of pins about 10 or so long and again with magnifying help you'll see cracked solder joints or burnt pins or joints leading to the plugs.  There are many threads here about the SAM and what's inside if not try Evilution's site....it's a very common problem.  You'll need a solder sucker or some anti solder brazing wire, it'll suck the solder out and off the pins you heat with a good precision soldering iron. Then I dab a bit of acetone using a Q-Tip just to clean that single pin , then blow dry, then simply resolder the pin to get a nice clean connection again.  Seriously, do this next before you spend more $$$$ on parts   I bet if you have your car running in the garage and you smack the SAM sharpishly you may replicate it shutting off as if you were driving...?   Plus it makes sense if it is a cold solder joint that when the car heats up electronically the bad joint separates and is causing your problems.   It's easy. just take your time and do not touch anything with a metal object so you do not spark or short it. 

The ECU just needs to be retaught to speak with the SAM and Speedo computer as they all must know each other.  I have taught a few different SAMs, ECU's and Speedo's to speak with each other....you do not need to reprogram them further than that. From what I have found so far. I also have plenty of mechanical knowledge but electronics scares the hell out of me, I hate things I can't see and that is electronics....lol.
Hope this helps.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

i dont know why it has reduced power but for an ESP problem my first thing to try would be to find a scan tool that can see and record live abs data then take it for a drive and see if anything sticks out when the system kicks off

 

if nothing shows up id then try and connect engine problems and esp/abs problems but trying to find out what circuits/wires/etc are shared with those two systems

Edited by LooseLugNuts
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Hi Willys - SAM disassembly sounds like my next plan - and as a bonus - it can be done in the house away from the rain :-)

I will try your idea of gently nudging the SAM box whilst stationary to see if this triggers the ESP response. It will also give me an excuse to bang my head against something hard - LOL.

LooseLugNuts - welcome to the party !

I had recorded live data from all wheels whilst driving, also voltage drops / spikes, rotation angles of engine and gearbox simultaneously and a variety of other bits. There’s nothing unusual to report :-/

“Reduced power” is not entirely correct - it is a full cut of power, down to tickover. No throttle response at all.

The ESP / engine problems are linked, but the ESP problem always precedes the engine failure. I can’t stimulate or simulate the engine issue without driving to trigger the ESP failure first.

Also.... once triggered, if everything is left alone for 10 / 15 minutes then the car behaves and drives fine (for about another 5 mins). I don’t have to delete codes, I just have to wait. If I do delete error codes I still have to wait.
Please don’t let me put you off - keep throwing those ideas at me.... something will stick eventually, hopefully!

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Be careful if you plan on take the sam apart they are meant only to be assembled once, The printed circuit board if folded back may crack on the copper lines. 

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Driver's side under the carpet, you will have to remove the seats and there mounts, there is a sensor mounted on the floor that might be the problem. 

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Hi Wild! Thanks for your messages.

Disassembly of the SAM is something I am wary of and have been hoping to avoid, any help in its execution is very gratefully received. I think I am almost at the point where SAM inspection is necessary, but I’ll try that sensor under the seat first :-)

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As long as you treat the SAM with care and not unfold it violently and it warmish temps I don't see it harming it especially if it hasn't been unfolded many many times before.  Wild is right, it could after many unfoldings get brittle I suppose ...?   But seeing as so many of us have bad SAMs that are in need of repairs especially to that single row of pins it makes perfect sense to have a peek. Just my bent nickel's worth...lol

 

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Ok - SAM is going to come out.... after I get towed home.

On an unrelated note, it’s not a problem with the accelerator pedal :-)

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And..... I smacked the SAM whilst driving - no response. I still agree that SAM disassembly is my next step. I tried replacing the pedal first ‘cos it was a quick change.

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SAM is apart. It smells lovely and looks brand new.

There is absolutely no sign of corrosion.

I’m looking for a manufacture date because I’d bet the farm this has been recently replaced. Not even any dust.

I’ve attached photos.

921C4C5D-58C4-4798-96FB-72E9735BB581.jpeg

3395A1AA-D579-4BC9-8BAE-758EC4A000D1.jpeg

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2nd pic, top left lone north south located pin plug that's the nasty one, unfold it some more....it'll be under that pin connector if the known damage is there.

 

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I still think it’s perfect.... I’ve tried to get up close and personal with the photo - let me know if you want another angle.

1965ED1A-7EB1-4C54-B03A-E22EA6699553.jpeg

D4892B06-C334-47FB-B67F-C563654C0ACF.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Bewildered said:

I’ve arrowed the back side of the connector

EA41B11F-950D-474A-BD44-6B677A006F23.jpeg

Yep thats the row, get a magnifying lense and look for any cracks on all of those pins......two above the arrow looks like it may have a crack but it could be lighting...?  Cold solder joints swell and expand with heat, causing them to open and close, sounds like your issue maybe...?  but it does look great compared to many we've seen burned up.

 

 

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looks like broken solder to me

 

id resolder all 5 of those pins above...especially that 5th one 

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