Looking for a second opinion - ForFour 453

[darkm4n 2]

Hi,

 

I recently bought a used Smart ForFour 0.9 DCT 90HP, 2016 year, 70000 km and I have some concerns regarding this car, I would like to know if anyone else

share the same experience I got. I will try to describe the facts that worry me the most:

 

1. High fuel consumption, the car takes about 16 l/100km, that about 14.5 mpg, in ECO mode and really normal city driving,

    no WOT or abusing the car in any way.

 

2. When it start cold, between 3 and 8 degree C outside, the idle slowly fluctuates between 700rpm and 1800rpm. It does that for about 1 minute,

   mostly depending on the outside temperature. Also it takes about 2.. 3 seconds cranking time till the engine starts.

 

3. On the last maintenance, the mechanic notices that the oil was contaminated with metal. There wasn't any big metal chunks, just very fine metal particles,

    enough of them to change the oil color to be a more gold color looking let's say.

 

4. I changed the spark plugs, absolutely no change after this, the old sparks looked very good, no lean or rich coloring.

 

5. Most of the times, when I break slowly coming to a stop, the engine shakes and vibrates pretty hard, there are times when it is about to stall.

   This happens till the clutch is fully open and something also happens when the car starts to move.

 

What worries me most is the oil contamination and the low fuel economy, I am curious if anyone else experienced such problems.

I put the car on Xentry and there are no codes.

 

Thanks!

[Chopper 264]

I'd be selling it.  In fact, at that age with that mileage I'd not have been inclined not buy it in the first place.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Chopper

[tolsen 630]

Smart 453 engines are prone to total failure.  Unsmart therefore in my humble opinion to buy any 453 Smart model.

[darkm4n 2]

That's weird, I never heard such thing. This motor is used in a lot of cars and I couldn't find any complains about.

Also, it is used in Dacia Logan, a local car that most cab drivers use in Romania and all of them really drive them a lot

without any issues.

 

I may be wrong, of course. Currently situation sustains what you are saying.

[Chopper 264]

You can't really compare the Dacia Logan, as while it's a close relative it's not actually an identical engine or block and is mounted in the front of the car and is managed by a totally different cooling system.  As it happens, it's a horrible unit in the Dacia IMHO - rough, light switch delivery, not especially powerful, and definitely not up to the job of hauling a Dacia.  Indeed, the 453 power to weight ratio is lower than the 451 turbo, so someone dropped a testicle there - that can hardly be considered as progress, but I guess when you're simply reskinning someone elses car (and shortening it in the case of the coupe) you have to take what you can get.  The much older Ford 3 pot engine makes a mockery of it.

 

I would suggest also that cab Drivers in Romania don't have much else to choose from in that price range, so do so out of necessity rather than any great love for their robust nature.

 

Anyway, back to topic...they're not hand grenades, but aren't renowned for robust longevity either.  A friend of mine is VP of the UK Twingo club (that is the same engine and mechanical installation) and he reports that problems, often very serious ones, are not a rarity.  Tellingly, Smart themselves have dropped the engine from their product range.

 

You've asked our opinion, and we've given it frankly.  An excess of metal in the oil can only have come from one place...

 

Inside the engine.

 

The fact that it is also running badly suggests very significant problems.  You've a choice of trying to punt it on to someone else, pulling the engine and rebuilding it, or fitting a used engine.  There is no fourth way.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Chopper

[Willys 747]

I agree with Chopper on this one for sure....IMHO...it's pooched and on it's way out if you have metal filings in the oil enough for a mechanic to tell you about it.   IF you love the car itself, simply replace engine or rebuild it.....it is expensive as I am also rebuilding one, a 450 diesel at the moment.....that would be my suggestion or as chopper says punt it along if you can without much of a cost loss....?

Sorry.

 

[darkm4n 2]

Thanks to everyone for their input! Really appreciate your advice.

 

It's such a shame on Mercedes they build and sell such a cars... the problem it that you cannot find any information on a quick search

about the flaws of the new 453, at least not easily find them. Or let's say for an average customer, you cannot find anything that worries you about the car.

 

I really consider a 70k km car "new" compared to the average milage a BMW / Mercedes or any other similar brands can take without problems, at least without major

engine failure scenarios.

 

I documented myself about how Smart adapted the engine and tilted it to 30 degrees, modifying its oil lubrication system to match the new configuration. I may be wrong as I didn't 

find too much documentation but for sure you cannot compare the Dacia engine setup with the Smart implementation, there are major differences.

 

I'am still searching for a 453 owner that has the same engine for their general impression about the car, this model clearly has a problem just I want to see more input

from other persons that had the same failures.

[tolsen 630]

The parts manager at my local dealership told me about the engine failure issues just a couple of days ago.

[Chopper 264]

Mercedes neither build nor sell the 453.

[darkm4n 2]

Yes Chopper, indeed but at least they advertised it like so.

Any non technical person going to buy one would never suspect it's actually a Twingo with different body panels. And probably also never suspect reliability issues from a Mercedes "licensed" ( as advertised ) car.

 

[Chopper 264]

Certainly not advertised such as here.  They're owned by Daimler, not Mercedes, and since the 450 was deleted from the range Mercedes have had no technical or engineering input.  The only link now is that Mercedes just happened to be owned by the same parent company that also happen to own Smart.  In any case, Mercedes haven't enjoyed a reputation for bullet proof reliability in 25 years.

 

I guess advertising in Romania isn't scrutinised as closely by the authorities as it is elsewhere.  I wonder how they'll advertise it in Romania when production switches to Geely in China?

[darkm4n 2]

For sure advertising here is different.

 

Back to the topic, I believe I have to find out what an engine rebuild involves and what are the common parts that needs changing.

Probably we are talking about rings, machining the head and checking the crankshaft bearings ( don't exactly know the term for this ).

 

I couldn't find anyone that did a 453 rebuild.

[Chopper 264]

Are Twingo's common over there? Perhaps a used Twingo motor might be cost effective?

[darkm4n 2]

Unfortunately not, and I would prefer to get the engine done instead of buying a used engine

that may have the same problems. In most situations you cannot start the engine.

[Chopper 264]

Fair point, unless you've seen it running it can be tricky to assess its condition.  The flip side of that is that a properly done rebuild is liable to be a fair bit more expensive than selling up and spending a bit extra on one that isn't broken.  

[Willys 747]

2 hours ago, Chopper said:

Fair point, unless you've seen it running it can be tricky to assess its condition.  The flip side of that is that a properly done rebuild is liable to be a fair bit more expensive than selling up and spending a bit extra on one that isn't broken.  

The issue with rebuilding your engine is, depending upon how anal you are, if like me, once it's open I will replace and or machine everything that gets worn so as to get a better than new end product. That.....is expensive!!!!   I could have as Chopper says bought another complete car for the cost of this rebuild....but it would be a possible crap shoot also.  I have a perfectly good car rust wise at the moment and mostly mechanically speaking also, so for the cost of a rebuild even as I am doing it will basically give me a brand new car condition wise any way....mechanically speaking that is.....daily wear and tear is what it is, I can live happily with that side of it. I have changed out or bought new almost every wear item on the car.....a complete over kill...in any normal person's eyes!!!   I'm sure.    But my good car is my toy to play with. My winter beater gets only what breaks.....nothing else and looks don't count at all!
So, you need to rethink the car completely as it's not a cheap car to restore so to speak. 
As for what you will need to buy new, imho are.....pistons, rings, main bearings, rod bearings,possible valve guides,get valves either new or re-cut, numerous seals and gaskets, possibly oil pump is scored, rebuild high pressure fuel pump(simply seals), I would recommend rebuilding injectors with new nozzles and sonic cleaning the bodies, deck head and block simply to clean up only, check turbo for slop, check exhaust manifold for crack.....then you start thinking about clutch and clutch fork and release bearing, clutch actutator service, ......I'm sure I have missed out some things........but this list will be the same as buying another car.......and rolling the dice on that one.....so you either spend on a new engine now or risk it....most risk it.....so I hear.....I do not want to mess with the mechanical again so I rebuild.  Oh while you are in this deep, get new alternator, and starter....far better than changing them out while engine is in car.....oh, and get new thermostat and water pump.....you see....the list is never ending.....lol.
The best and cheapest for me to get these items from was SW-SMART out of Germany.....you may be able to find a cheaper place as you are on the right side of the globe for Smart parts.


So, after spending all this on this car what other car could you have bought for less that is a far better vehicle....?    You really must want this car a slow car to spend this money on it.   I have a sickness....I love to tinker and modify things I own, it's what I do for entertainment so to speak.....far cheaper than the bars or smoking etc etc.....not to mention chasing women especially at my age.....heart surgery is expensive.......lol.

 

Hope this helps.........lol

[darkm4n 2]

Update:

 

After further investigations and 1000km I did not see any metal in the oil. Maybe it was contaminated before or the mechanic didn't actually see it.

Thing I did during this time:

1. Replaced the camshaft position sensor, the engine runs smoother, not a big difference but it is.

2. Replaced the camshaft solenoid, big change, the car runs a lot better, much less engine stuttering when stopping or starting from a standstill.

3. Replaced the battery with the correct 60Ah ( it had a 55Ah in ) AGM, starts and idle better after this.

 

The most significant improvement was after I replaced the camshaft solenoid.

There is still some stuttering left but it can be easily ignored, or maybe this is the way the DCT works.

 

Another question: do your 0.9 DCT shows a dim in the cabin lights when throttling in neutral ? Gearbox in N, push the throttle half way, fast. Do the light inside the vehicle loose intensity for a split second ?

I suspect a charging regulator/alternator problem somewhere that could also be linked to the engine stuttering when stopping as the gearbox is electric and the load increases when the clutch engage/dissingage.

It's clear the voltage drops and the alternator kicks in, for example on STAR I did see a 800w steady alternator rate on idle, going to 1600w when throttling.

 

Thanks!