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SnapDragon

06 Smart cranking no start

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Hello, replaced a stripped oil gear by taking the engine out of car and replaced with a Taiwanese parts kit. Checked the alternator and made sure to free it up. Threw the engine back into the car and went to crank the car with another car boosting the battery. Low pressure pump can be heard pumping fuel from the tank. A couple more cranks later I cracked the unions at the pipes leading to the injectors and fuel was there spraying out during cranking. Hopeful that it would start, I cranked again and I got the car to catch on 1 cylinder once. Then the car would continue to crank freely without any sign of catching. After that, every time I cranked only 1 cylinder would fire once. Sprayed lube oil (no wd40 at my shop unfortunately) into intake to try and raise compression to cylinder 1 as the wiki and many posts have suggested. Still no luck. Pulled all the injectors to see what could be happening and was able to see that only cylinder 1 injector was wet while the others were bone dry. I assume the Crankshaft position sensor is working because the tach is showing the rpms of the engine during cranking. Could anyone please give me some advice as to what could be going wrong? Car was stilling started and ran before the oil gear change job.

 

Thanks

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Further probing and doing as suggested in this post:

It would seem that cylinder 2 and 1 were both stuck open and I suppose my in inexperience with feeling for it while cranking by hand and hearing for compression made me miss it. Couple taps of a hammer and punch under the valve cover and onto the valve spring caps with cams pushing into their respective valves later and the car started right up. 

Edited by SnapDragon
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Great news....but why did valves stick open? Lack of lube after sitting..?  Or did something get pushed out of alignment during oil pump repair...?   Maybe just old and tired?

 

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6 hours ago, Willys said:

Great news....but why did valves stick open? Lack of lube after sitting..?  Or did something get pushed out of alignment during oil pump repair...?   Maybe just old and tired?

 

Most likely sitting for quite a while. From the time of diagnoses to actually doing a job could have been easily half a year or more so the engine was just sitting. I did remove the camshaft to facilitate timing the motor during replacement of all the chains but did not bump into anything that should have caused them to stick. Anyone suggest deep cleaning the motor with seafoam or something? 

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1 hour ago, SnapDragon said:

Anyone suggest deep cleaning the motor with seafoam or something? 

I have deep cleaned a few engines and had differing results. Younger engines with less miles or kms and less gunk in them seem to do far better than an engine with higher kms and a thicker gunk level. The older gunkier engines seem to use their gunk to fill in clearances and once you do a serious deep cleaning you remove or enlarge those clearances resulting in a far noisier or worn out engine. IMHO. I have had this result from 3 engines i can recall. I do clean out engines that I feel have the starting of higher gunk levels in many ways. But the best way is to dismantle the engine and do a rebuild of various levels. A simple re-ring and reseal so to speak with maybe lapping in the valves is the cheapest , then you can move to a full blown replace all worn parts and start like new or better than new. It's only money and time. IF the car is worth the rebuild and you love to drive it, then what other car can you buy to replace it with for what you spend rebuilding the heart of said car? None imho.  I have possibly $6,000 in my summer car but every moving mechanical part has either been replaced or rebuilt to new specs or better. That number includes the purchase price! So it's your call in the end.
I have used gasoline, detergents, additives etc etc to deep clean engines in my past.......and like  I have said  I have destroyed 3 engines resulting in a complete rebuild because of removing all the crap filling in the cam bearings, just as an example of where the worn parts were. Line bored cam bearings do not do well when you can't replace non existant bearings....Hmmm....
I do not think Sea-foam will clean much except the injectors etc as best as it can....the better way is new nozzles and sonic clean them.......yes more expensive but totally worth it if you are experiencing crappy performance or poor fuel economy.

Just my opinion yours may differ.

 

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probably wouldnt hurt it to run some rislone in with the oil for a while 

 

 

 

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I suppose I will do a combination of what Willys and LooseLugNuts suggests and give it some additive in the oil and leaving the rest of the gunk in there to fill in any wear holes. The car has 150k kms. Thanks for the insight on that Willys. On a side note, I did take the injectors nozzles off to ultrasound clean them and make sure all 5 holes were spraying on each injector. 

 

Another point that concerns me after starting the car up was after a bit, the engine started pushing out a lot of white smoke. I hope its the oil in the intake that I threw in to increase compression burning off. There's no coolant in the car at this time as I am just starting it to make sure everything is ok.

 

One last thing, the pipe that goes from the air intake to the turbo has 5 splits on the turbo side and I dont believe it is good for sealing anymore. Anyone got some advice as to where I can acquire one that does not cost 110 dollars CAD from the dealer?

 

Thanks everyone!

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I think I have that pipe.....

 

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On 6/20/2020 at 5:12 PM, SnapDragon said:

 

 

One last thing, the pipe that goes from the air intake to the turbo has 5 splits on the turbo side and I dont believe it is good for sealing anymore. Anyone got some advice as to where I can acquire one that does not cost 110 dollars CAD from the dealer?

 

the pipe is designed with the splits in it.     i thought it was odd also,  but all 5 of my cdi's are the same way.

 

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There is a pumbing type black tape like electrical tape that stretches as you apply it and seals water tight, you could always use that under the hose clamp to help seal it. IF your splits are past the turbo material then yes you may need a better pipe. I sent you a PM saying the same thing, and maybe a picture to see if your pipe is normal or worse.   Thanks

 

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On 6/22/2020 at 5:56 AM, Sydney said:

the pipe is designed with the splits in it.     i thought it was odd also,  but all 5 of my cdi's are the same way.

 

5 CDIs woaaahh. Gave a photo to Willys so he can do a comparison with his spare pipe and the cracks were ok. Thanks for the info. 

 

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Car has started to hesitate and give white smoke, cant run it over 2k rpm even with the throttle pushed down. Cranking the engine by hand revealed that compression in cylinder 3 has weakened in comparison to 1 and 2. Ran like a charm before. Maybe valves are getting stuck again?

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White smoke is usually water or unburned fuel....... Might be time to try a deep cleaning and hope for the best?  IF you find someone near you with a STAR, it'll tell you how the engine is running and I bet how to fix it....maybe take a video of it's symptoms etc as they are happening so we can see too...? You never know it might jog someone memory bank and know how to solve it? I bought a compression tester for diesels when I first bought my car, then managed to get a STAR so never actually used the compression tester I don't think.  I usually always check compression on my gasoline engines when they start acting up like this. It gives you a solid answer in what direction to go. That and a leak down test. Another thing I haven't done on this engine yet.....I simply rebuilt it from the ground up instead while I was looking inside it.....it sort of snow balled.

 

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OK, I'll guess.....uneven some how fuel pressure or delivery between cylinders.   When playing with the STAR, I found a section in it that shows if the engine is ballanced, or in other words it's how they say the compression is good on each cylinder from what it was explained to me as.  You can watch on the screen the numbers of each cylinder as the car is running, they change as the RPMs increase or decrease etc.....but they are supposed to all equal one so to speak of the difference between then is no greater than one....I'd have to go back and research that to be exact. I'm sure someone will tell us the correct thing to watch for.  That engine sounds like it's cycling or hunting.....I'm sure that is a fuel delivery issue.  I could be wrong but it sounds like it..?
OR could it be a burned pin in the SAM creating the issue electrically speaking?  Have you gone over the SAM with a strong magnifier?   I'd have all injectors out and cleaned in a sonic cleaner and then each one tested for spray patterns and see again with magnifier what each hole looks like. Are they all clear, no edges deformed resulting in a bad spray pattern? If the nozzles look questionable I'd have the all replaced. Nozzles aren't expensive any more....like they used to be. You can find them on this site somewhere with part numbers and where to buy them. OR could it be as simple as a bad grounding connection?  Keep it simple stupid thinking...?  KISS system...?  OR is the fuel old and not up to grade any longer? Is the fuel filter new and not plugged slightly?  Is the fuel pump building pressure so the high pressure pump can do it's job correctly?  Maybe as simple as a small pin hole in an air line to or from the turbo..? Or waste gate? Has the EGR been cleaned out completely or is the plunger trapped?  What have you checked and knocked off the list so far?  Sorry thought this was going to be a short guess....lol.

Hmmm...what about worn valve guides holding valves or not allowing them to seat the valves correctly. My engine had to have it's guides redone as they wobbled more than my machinist liked.  IF it isn't a simple fix, I'd be removing the head and having a close look at it and getting down to brass tacks so to speak....

White smoke and such usually means head gasket? and if so that would explain weak cylinder pressures.  

I just thought of my intake gaskets or seals, all of them you could see where they were allowing air to get past them but the discolouration on the seals and around the leak .....maybe?  A semi easy fix and not that invasive....engine disassembly wise.  I have only disassembled two engines and both had it to some degree, naturally my good engine so to speak, the one I rebuilt had it the worst.  But it ran perfectly before taking it apart.  I was after the oil system and while that far said, lets see....lol.

 

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1 hour ago, Willys said:

OK, I'll guess.....uneven some how fuel pressure or delivery between cylinders.   When playing with the STAR, I found a section in it that shows if the engine is ballanced, or in other words it's how they say the compression is good on each cylinder from what it was explained to me as.  You can watch on the screen the numbers of each cylinder as the car is running, they change as the RPMs increase or decrease etc.....but they are supposed to all equal one so to speak of the difference between then is no greater than one....I'd have to go back and research that to be exact. I'm sure someone will tell us the correct thing to watch for.  That engine sounds like it's cycling or hunting.....I'm sure that is a fuel delivery issue.  I could be wrong but it sounds like it..?
OR could it be a burned pin in the SAM creating the issue electrically speaking?  Have you gone over the SAM with a strong magnifier?   I'd have all injectors out and cleaned in a sonic cleaner and then each one tested for spray patterns and see again with magnifier what each hole looks like. Are they all clear, no edges deformed resulting in a bad spray pattern? If the nozzles look questionable I'd have the all replaced. Nozzles aren't expensive any more....like they used to be. You can find them on this site somewhere with part numbers and where to buy them. OR could it be as simple as a bad grounding connection?  Keep it simple stupid thinking...?  KISS system...?  OR is the fuel old and not up to grade any longer? Is the fuel filter new and not plugged slightly?  Is the fuel pump building pressure so the high pressure pump can do it's job correctly?  Maybe as simple as a small pin hole in an air line to or from the turbo..? Or waste gate? Has the EGR been cleaned out completely or is the plunger trapped?  What have you checked and knocked off the list so far?  Sorry thought this was going to be a short guess....lol.

Hmmm...what about worn valve guides holding valves or not allowing them to seat the valves correctly. My engine had to have it's guides redone as they wobbled more than my machinist liked.  IF it isn't a simple fix, I'd be removing the head and having a close look at it and getting down to brass tacks so to speak....

White smoke and such usually means head gasket? and if so that would explain weak cylinder pressures.  

I just thought of my intake gaskets or seals, all of them you could see where they were allowing air to get past them but the discolouration on the seals and around the leak .....maybe?  A semi easy fix and not that invasive....engine disassembly wise.  I have only disassembled two engines and both had it to some degree, naturally my good engine so to speak, the one I rebuilt had it the worst.  But it ran perfectly before taking it apart.  I was after the oil system and while that far said, lets see....lol.

 

I have taken each injector apart and sonic cleaned the nozzles then sprayed some brake cleaner through to check for spray pattern.

 

SAM unit was checked for burnt pins on all the pins and nothing was found to be burned.

 

I have checked the obvious grounds like the one that goes to the vaccum pump and the one that connects from the transmission brace to the chassis. Am I missing anymore that should be checked?

 

EGR was cleaned out with plunger and solenoid tested for functionality.

 

The things I am missing are overhauling the fuel system like the fuel itself and the filter, checking over the turbo, and actually testing the fuel pressure for numbers. I suppose the headgasket could cause compression issues, could I test that with the oil cap trick to see if it flies off? No coolant in the car at this moment. I suppose I will get the rest of the fuel system done up first before I delve into the other stuff. Thanks for all the advice and look forward to some more!

 

 

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Is it possible to use iCarsoft to read the compression on these smart cars? Just thought I might buy one to service my other Mercedes and see if this particular smart's computer is saying anything.

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You could make a fitting to screw into the glow plug holes to be able to do a leak down test to check to see if valves are sealing or if rings are good?  Not the easiest but a thought?

When you did your injectors, did you buy new compression rings? OR re soften them so they conform to the base of the injector again..?

The SAM pins don't need to look burned to be bad, they will have a very fine line around the actual pin in the solder......only really bad pins will be burned. Check each wire to see if it is complete from one side of plug to the other conductivity wise, I have heard of wires being broken within the plugs.  Connector cut the wire within it'self.
There is a ground beside battery basically on the center tunnel, one near the fuel filter/sensor under drivers seat area, one under front lip of bodywork in engine compartment, The one next to the battery obviously...lol.    Have you checked that white connector under battery as it gets corroded. Also have you opened up the silver E-Box near battery? Have you checked ECU plug in's for green pins?  Again BEWARE as the ECU has capacitors which hold a charge!   Checked every fuse?  When you reinstalled the add on side fuse holders on the SAM did you put them back whre they came from? One side is switched power and the other is battery power.  Not sure if it makes that much of a difference but you never know?   Grasping now...lol

 

 

Talk to Stickman007 about programs that service your cars....he knows most everything in that field.  You could always get a STAR system but make it using a newer multiplexer not the M3 I use which enables you to work on the newer MBs as well. Mine says it will do all MB vehicles but I haven't tried to see if it could, I don't own one, just my smarts. IZZY is his name and he can help, inform you to what is what I imagine.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, SnapDragon said:

Is it possible to use iCarsoft to read the compression on these smart cars? Just thought I might buy one to service my other Mercedes and see if this particular smart's computer is saying anything.

The STAR measures what they call the balance of the engine to figure out the compression......not 100% sure how it's done but maybe another program works the same way...?  Being a diesel and all..?  OR you could make adapter for glow plug holes.  I bought a compression tester for diesels that basically does this.....but it doesn't fit the smart as the glow plug holes are too deep for it and I must extend the fitting.....it wasn't expensive and you need a higher compression gauge for diesels.

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29 minutes ago, Willys said:

You could make a fitting to screw into the glow plug holes to be able to do a leak down test to check to see if valves are sealing or if rings are good?  Not the easiest but a thought?

When you did your injectors, did you buy new compression rings? OR re soften them so they conform to the base of the injector again..?

The SAM pins don't need to look burned to be bad, they will have a very fine line around the actual pin in the solder......only really bad pins will be burned. Check each wire to see if it is complete from one side of plug to the other conductivity wise, I have heard of wires being broken within the plugs.  Connector cut the wire within it'self.
There is a ground beside battery basically on the center tunnel, one near the fuel filter/sensor under drivers seat area, one under front lip of bodywork in engine compartment, The one next to the battery obviously...lol.    Have you checked that white connector under battery as it gets corroded. Also have you opened up the silver E-Box near battery? Have you checked ECU plug in's for green pins?  Again BEWARE as the ECU has capacitors which hold a charge!   Checked every fuse?  When you reinstalled the add on side fuse holders on the SAM did you put them back whre they came from? One side is switched power and the other is battery power.  Not sure if it makes that much of a difference but you never know?   Grasping now...lol

 

 

Talk to Stickman007 about programs that service your cars....he knows most everything in that field.  You could always get a STAR system but make it using a newer multiplexer not the M3 I use which enables you to work on the newer MBs as well. Mine says it will do all MB vehicles but I haven't tried to see if it could, I don't own one, just my smarts. IZZY is his name and he can help, inform you to what is what I imagine.

 

 

 

Thanks Willys, will give source a diesel compression tester, go over the SAM and the grounds. ECU plug was checked after the initial problem in this post and fire washers were replaced with new ones from MB. There's also a nagging feeling in the back of my head that I did not tighten down the injector nozzles hard enough. I suppose I will see a pool of fuel in the injector well. 

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