DieselAllTheWay

Video of Smart trying to start (but it won't)

91 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Sydney said:

i assume you think you are missing an o-ring on the shaft of the injector?   there are no o-rings required.  (i'm not sure what the groves are for).

and yes the shafts should be greased.

Yes the crush washer is the copper washer in the above pic, no rubber what so ever on the shaft.....you must be confused with something else.....lol....lol...lol.

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lol why is everyone so hang up on the crush washers? I mentioned in the very first line that I replaced them with new ones from Merc.

To clarify below is a pic showing the o'ring in question. This is an injector I removed from the wreckers. The 3 injectors from my Smart does not show these. Which is what has me wondering if its intent is to help keep compression from escaping? The washer slightly bulges past the diameter of the injector's body.

injector-oring.jpg

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Interesting. Below is a pic from Merc's parts catalogue and it does not show the o'ring in the 450 parts catalogue. The injector I removed from the wrecker was a 2006 CDI. Isn't a 2006 still a 450? Were these o'rings added after 2005? 

Anyway, I suppose that if the Merc engineers didn't think the o'ring was necessary (despite the grove that apparently was made for one) then I suppose my issues lie elsewhere. Just wanted to verify that I'm not missing any parts, small as they may be that could be causing loss of compression.

 

For the record I slapped a thin coat of motor oil to the body of the injectors prior to installing them. Wanted to stay away from anti-seize as these appear to bake into the body over time making them even harder to remove.

 

injector-from-Merc-parts-catalogue.jpg

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LOL...that is crud...lol

 

None of any injectors I have rebuilt had any seal, washer, "O"ring where you are looking at....sorry to say....I will be surprised if that is a seal etc....pick at it with a dental type pick and I'll bet it breaks away...looks a bit like hardened crap filling the groove is all.

 

The only washers I know are the crush washers and I thought you had bought them so wondered why you were speaking about not knowing what washers there was on the injector...lol

 

 

I'll bet it crap simpy stuck in the groove.....it'll also be helping the cap from undoing .....Good luck.

 

That black area is the bottom of the top cap that holds the nozzles, when you heat the cap up you do it close to that black line and up for about 1/2" as there is fine threads that far up holding the cap on.

 

 

Edited by Willys

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HAH! Mystery solved. 

It fooled me as it not only looks like an o'ring, the sides are fully uniform and shinny. Suppose that the side to side movement as I removed it from the parts car nicely sanded the crud out to make it look like a proper part. Well, so much for that.

 

At this time I'm reluctant to try and take apart the injectors, with only 100k on them and after a good ultrasonic clean to the nozzle ends, I'm willing to bet that these are still OK for now. For one the car drives very nicely when it starts so I have no reason to suspect the injectors aren't behaving as they should. At least I hope I can buy some time opening these. Don't sound like too much fun. 

 

So the plan now is to try and eliminate things one at a time. Will start with these two items:

- will replace the fuel filter. The light for mine is always on, so it's a no brainer to replace it.

- will replace the silver box that sits behind the battery with that of the parts car and see if it helps. The silver box from the parts car looks like new.

- as the engine error code above indicates, there's some fuel pressure issues. Maybe someone can comment on possible causes? I have the entire fuel rail with sensors from the parts car (thanks Willys for twisting my arm to buy that).

After that I suppose I'll start tracking down possible grounding issues. At least we have decent weather now.

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Another update:

Started tracking down some of the wiring and found this beauty in the pic below. This is the white connector sitting just behind the battery. As you can tell this car has had a lot of moisture pestering its interior. Took a good amount of elbow grease just to clean up the battery bay. 

As seen in the pic one of the pics corroded and broke into the other connector, getting stuck in the groove, clearly not making contact. Good thing I removed a pristine one from the parts car, so I went ahead and replaced the connectors. While there also replaced the neg batt cable with a longer one, also ensuring the contact was nicely sanded. Replaced the silver box too, with the parts car that also looked perfect. 

 

Had my fingers crossed that this would make it easier to start the car. Was mistaken. It took starter fluid and nearly draining out the batt in order to have it finally fire up. On the plus side the fuel filter light is no longer on, so I wonder if the white connector relates to this filter. 

 

Drove around endlessly in an effort to use up the fuel in the tank, just in the event it turned bad due it having sat for years and is accounting for the hard start. But run out of time. Car is way too economical. But while driving I did notice smoke when there was a car behind me, shining his headlights towards me, as I took off from a red light. This smoke isn't visible with the naked eye without lights to help. Car also hesitates a bit while revving it up. It is starting to point to a timing issue. I sure hope I'm wrong on that but can't think of too many other causes for my issues.

broken-contact-white-connector.jpg

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You may find that the fuel isn't getting atomized correctly by the injectors and it's raw fuel or un burnt fuel smoke you're seeing. It is a dirty diesel after all. IMHO, if you can't see it in the daylight it isn't smoking badly enough to say it's an oil burner.

Yes that white plug has something to do with the fuel sensor and the dash light, imho as mine did the same thing. I would open up the silver box and check to see what it looks like inside. Mine looked like new on the outside but was all covered in white crud inside. It washed off using some soap and a toothbrush, then I used nail polish to re seal the board.  Clear. 

There is a grounding pin under the engine compartment lip. It's at roughly the 11 o'clock position under the front edge of the bodywork in front of the inter cooler. It's a usual bad ground position. Also check main ground cable from engine to bodywork.,  

 

I worry that you are going to burn out your starter by working it so hard...?  I expect you have installed the crush washers under your injectors?   Have you checked the glow plug resistances yet..?   .9 ..? 

 

Just curious.....when you cut these connectors off, etc, you do disconnect the battery correct...?    One zap will fry your computers.....worst case..?

 

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Yes, bettery was removed. A necessity in order to access the white socket. And I always unplug it before even disconnecting any socket, I'm now paranoid I'm gonna fry something or activate a warning light that you can't turn off (here looking at you, airbag light - literally, each time I start the car). I also don't spray contact cleaner after your experience. I spray a tiny amount on a toothbrush and gently clean contacts that way. 

 

Yes, new crush washers installed on all 3 injectors, concave side facing up. I truly don't think the injector nozzles are the issue but compared to timing, I sure hope they are. If so, no biggie, will remove them and attempt to take them apart and install new nozzles. If it wasn't so damn difficult I'd have done that by now. I do have a decent torch that I can heat up the area around the threads and a vise that I can secure the injector in, while cranking with a breaker bar. So it's doable. It's just something I was hoping I could get away without doing. But as proven, what I have done hasn't paid dividends.

 

Going to open up one of 3 silver boxes now. Found this third one in the car, behind the passenger seat, along with the ECU that attaches to the airbox. Looks like PO bought a few parts from the wreckers but never installed them. Good thing, seeing how he didn't save the wires for the ECU. 

 

Tomorrow I hope to have a friend mechanic look at the car. If there's an issue with timing, he's the guy would pick up on it (he did the timing in my diesel Rabbit and mk4 TDI Jetta, something few around here can do properly). He has some fancy high tech microscope that can check for timing without taking the motor apart. Compared to the cost/headache of replacing a timing chain, etc, I'd gladly attempt to take apart injectors using my teeth. If it came to replacing a timing chain would have to carefully consider our options with my better half. But lets not fret till tomorrow after he looks at it. But yes, he now has me scared shitless. 

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Good, as this means I have one less hurdle to deal with. How confusing is this? Call up Napa as I read here that they have the best prices on filters for the 450. Am quoted $46.10 for one and $85.63 for the other. Dude can't tell me if it has the opening for the water probe, the pic in his computer doesn't show a top view. Tells me my best bet it to drive across town to the only franchisee that has one in stock, and to another for the other in order to confirm if this is the right filter. 

 

Call up a Merc dealership and am quoted $24.71 for the fuel filter. He too cannot answer if it has the insert for the water sensor but insists that this is the right filter for my car, based on the VIN. And this isn't even the dealership with the best prices for parts, out of the 3 in town. 

 

Glad this is a headache I don't have to incur. At least if one can trust the sensor to be doing its job, now that the wiring has been rectified.

 

Incidentally, Napa wants $20 for an oil filter while Merc only charges exactly half that. Go figure.

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FYI Canadian Tire also has filters.  About nine dollars for the Mann HU68X oil filter and about ten fifty for the Fram oil filter.  The fuel filter is about thirty but you will only need to change that every few years.

 

Nigel

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What's the torque for the bolt that holds the injectors in place? Looks like it is 7nm based on a few posts I came across but can someone confirm?

 

Found the info below at a Merc forum for what appears to be identical injectors. If indeed this is the same for our CDI then can someone please describe what the procedure is? I don't quite follow the whole 90 degree thing.

 

Insert the injector in the hole, fit the clamp and bolt, and then torque the bolt up. The torque settings are for this engine (most CDI’s) is 7nm and TWO angles of 90degrees. The 7nm crushes the washer. The first 90 tensions the bolt, the second puts a slight bend in the bolt so its slightly springy.

 

Edit: Just removed a couple of the injectors to test for wetness and the bolt was virtually loose (I hadn't torqued it specs when installing them last week). Engine was hot. I suppose I could have undone the bolts by hand if I had tried hard enough (pretty sure I tightened it a lot more than this when I installed the injectors onto the cold engine). Makes me wonder if injectors that were bolted down with less than required torque could cause a loss of compression (and thus hard to start)?

Edited by DieselAllTheWay

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90 degrees is an extra quarter of a rotation after initial torque

 

what you posted is 

1 torque to 7nm

2 turn bolt 90 dgreees (1/4 turn)

3 turn bolt an additional 90 degrees (1/4 turn)

 

degrees are usually used for torque to yield bolts ...always check them for stretch before re-using (ideally dont re-use them )

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Hey LooseLugs thanks for the timely reply. Was about to head back out to tighten these following your reply when I noticed the temp was down to 3.8C (from 13 just a couple of hours earlier) and with full darkness out I figured I wait till daylight tomorrow. 

 

K, so here's the latest:

 

Took the car to my mechanic friend that has this very high end diag setup. Pretty neat, OBSD end is wireless, plucks it into place and with an iPad style equipment he was at the back of the car with the engine running. Most things seem in place although there's a chance the timing could be off by a couple of degrees (significant) but since these cars make it very hard to check the timing, we'll leave it for now.

 

Here's the big one though: it showed that with the car running it had a normal internal compression of around 254 bar. But the moment the engine was off that dropped to around 7 immediately. This denotes a fuel leak somewhere, he proposed. Said that a good first step would be to take out the injectors while motor still hot and check for a wet injector. So I did just that, only removed 2 of the injectors as a starting point. Didn't really notice any wetness to the injectors but what struck me was how easy it was to remove the bolt that holds the injector in place (clearly I should have inquired about torquing these before installing them back) and whether this could have allowed for a compression leak that could account for the drop in internal pressure. Clearly my failure to properly tighten the injector bolt meant not enough pressure was applied to the crush washer, leading me to believe the whole thing was loose enough in order to cause compression loss (maybe?)

 

Will torque these tomorrow and will see if it makes any bit of difference with starting the car.

So torque to 7nm, tighten another quarter turn, then again. Gotcha.

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You can anneal the copper rings by heating until dull red then quench in water. 

 

Soap test around injectors to confirm there are no leaks. I simply use washing up liquid in water and apply by brush or spray bottle. A very sensitive test. 

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Good idea to spray soapy water, thanks for the tip. Wish I had done this prior to removing the injectors. But no signs of any leaks since torquing the bolts to spec. Given the non smooth location of the injectors I sprayed a good amount of foam to ensure it fully covered the base of the injectors. Glad to report not a single bubble raised. 

 

So, as it turns out 7NM = 5.1 foot pound. My 3/8 wrench starts at 10. Doh! This meant a quick ride to Princess Auto for a small torque wrench. Lovely day today at 14C in the sunshine so I didn't mind the ride there, besides, found one on sale for just $12.99

 

K, so I followed the instructions: cleaned the holes as best as I could with baby wipes (one of the most versatile tools one can have), applied some motor oil to the body of the injectors, ensured the crush washers were new (good thing I bought half a dozen last month) and did the initial torque to 7nm. Then 90 degrees. Then waited some 30 min, rinse and repeat, although I was petrified and only went as far as 45º. Pretty tight, any tighter and I was scared the hole thing would pop right out. Marked the top of the bolts and will keep an eye on them to ensure they don't work themselves loose with all the vibration.

 

Car didn't start any easier but it may take a few cycles (this is the optimistic in me talking). It did sound smoother though, a slightly deeper, cleaner sound - then again it could just have been in my head. It also seems to have a bit more power but again, who can tell for sure. One thing is for sure though: it no longer hesitates when revving it high with the engine fully warm. Red lining it while parked felt smooth and no hesitation, unlike before. So perhaps I did have a compression leak before. Car still smokes. Comparable to pre TDI VWs. No idea if the Merc diesels are supposed to smoke or being Merc technology that they'd be virtually smoke free like the newer TDIs? Will have to take a video and post here so you folks can help me figure out if the amount of smoke is normal. 

 

Will try and start it the next couple of days to see if there's any improvement. Things are improving, slowly but getting there.

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9 hours ago, DieselAllTheWay said:

 

 did the initial torque to 7nm. Then 90 degrees. Then waited some 30 min, rinse and repeat, although I was petrified and only went as far as 45º. 

 

 

 

 

 

According to the ''star'' the correct torque is 7nm then 180 degrees.

I've done this many times with no issues.

 

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Just a thought?   Maybe you need to hit the oil with some serious cleaning solution to maybe unstick rings, valves..anything?    Not 100% sure if this will work but after using Kleen-Diesel in my fuel tank every other tank for the first winter and more spread out during the summer, it semi changed my opinion on the old "mechanic in a can" idea.  Nothing replaces actually re-building or freshening of a mechanical machine but the evidence of how well my engine ran after adding 50ml to each tank was noticable.
So it also depends upon how much you can drive the car in a single day to use enough to allow it to do whatever it claims to do. It did take a few tank fulls to see and feel the difference. I have heard of oil additives that claim to clean the lubrication side of things but can't recommend any, sorry. 

 

IF you can make up some sort of pressure testing device to do a leak down type test, you'll know what is causing the poor compression IF that is what you are experiencing. OR get a diesel compression tester off Amazon like I did and go that route.  To make a leak down unit you could use an old damaged injector. Just gut it so that you can deliver air pressure where the inlet fuel port is and install a gauge, fill cylinder to pressure and watch gauge to see if it drops. It will also allow you to fill cylinder with steady air so you then can listen to one of three locations for the hissing sounds of air passing where it shouldn't. Valve cover oil fill, bad rings.....exhaust, bad exhaust valves, and finally intake for bad intake valves. This must be done on the compression stroke so both valves are in their closed position. Also beware of adding air pressure to an engine as it will rotate it violently and possibly catch you by mistake.  This is what I would do next to be honest with you. Take an injector apart and get it set up to simply deliver air pressure into the cylinder.  No nozzles or internal valving. So if you can't undo the nozzle cap, grind it off and ruin one injector to add to your tool box.  Pick the worst injector you own and have at it. It will tell you if you have a problem and usually how bad it is. The more air passing the worse the issue is normally.

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I have another idea , one which I tested very early on when I first owned my smart. I watched a video of people testing how much fuel was being returned to the fuel tank because of a bad injector. It involves many feet of clear plastic tubing attached to the tops of your injectors and clear water bottles. You remove the return lines off the injectors and plug up the end return port. Now attach the same length of hosing to each injector return port and then into a clear water bottle. You now run the engine and watch to see how much fuel is being returned back to the tank and if it is equal between each injector.  IF one injector isn't performing as the other do as in far more fuel being sent back, that injector is bad and needs rebuilding. I have one bad and the other two were close enough to each other to say one was much worse than the others. This is what started my injector rabbit hole expedition. A good sonic cleaning and new nozzles fixed this immediately.
Good luck.  Sorry just thought of this.

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16 hours ago, Willys said:

Maybe you need to hit the oil with some serious cleaning solution to maybe unstick rings, valves..anything?

 

Damn straight!

That is a superb idea. The very thing we used to do in the good old days: buy a used car and the first thing you did was take it on the highway for a dose of decarbonization. In fact I just came home now, just before midnight after doing exactly what you proposed this morning. 

 

Knowing that I'd be out driving for a while I changed the very old and stale oil. Man, that was fun in so many ways. Have half a large bottle of Howes Diesel Conditioner that I tripled the normal dosage, adding 100ml to 15 litres of fresh diesel. Then took it on a nearly 170km drive, mostly highway at just over 100km/h. Ensuring I red lined it often in order to get more fuel getting through the system. Car performed admirably but won't know till tomorrow early afternoon if it will start any easier. But since I have no problems starting the car I plan to take it on another 200 or so km drive. In fact I will be putting on the summer tires before heading out as I don't want to chew up the new winter tires that are on right now (that's how the car came). Since it drives so nicely with zero concerns I will simply drive the hell out of it for 3 tank fulls to see if things improve. Could prove the cheapest fix ever.

 

Thanks for the great idea. The other great idea you had is installing clear tubing to check the return fuel from the injectors. This is genius. So simple and yet a great way to tell the injectors performance. But hopefully it won't come to that. Lets see what happens as I put on 1,000km or so in the next few days.

 

This is why I love second opinions. If it doesn't fix anything at least I'll have had some fun while at it. Only if I had a working radio to make the drive more fun (stupid code for the radio didn't come with the car)

 

Will update as I go along. Thanks everyone. I'm really eager to have this car running 100%

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19 hours ago, smart142 said:

 

According to the ''star'' the correct torque is 7nm then 180 degrees.

I've done this many times with no issues.

 

I am clearly no expert but based on what I have read on the subject, apparently the new thinking is to do a quarter turn, wait for the metal to stretch/rest and then another quarter turn. Either way I found this to be too scary to attempt as I felt as though the bolt would strip the aluminum body of the engine. Remember, the specs also calls for new bolts. I'm only using a single new bolt out of the 3, and only because one bolt was missing from the car so I'm not sure if I should give a full 180 given what I'm working with. I may give it another 20º when the motor is warm. 

 

However I checked the bolts after the car had been running for a couple of hours and they didn't budge at all. Again, I'm not professing to be an expert, I'm just too scared to turn it that much. Aluminum terrifies me.

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Fair enough!

I feel the same way removing and installing glow plugs!

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Just my personal opinion and many will bark and buck at this but, I don't agree with red lining such a small diesel engine, to each their own.  Sure bring it up close but.....  I also don't agree with beating the daylites out of it either....simply due to it not being a race bred type engine....it comes across to me as a steady turtle type engine that should last a long time if treated with care. Such as a machine power plant, not a constant up and down rev'ed street engine like we normally use our vehicles. Well when we get impatient or upset etc....I've killed my share of good engine in my youth so I am no different to anyone.  Including my uncle's Landrover diesel when in my late teens. Oil everywhere and a disgusted look on is face after asking me not to take it above a certain RPM.  I could be wrong but that experience taught me a sad lasting memory of costing someone I cared about many thousands of pounds sterling to repair his much needed vehicle.   Didn't stop me from beating the life out of my own cars and it also made sure I never bought a diesel powered vehicle....until this car.

Again to each their own......you should watch those you tube videos of people doing the bleed back test and how their cars ran beforehand and then after repairing their injectors.  Could be exactly what you need?

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