stp359

intermittent p0702, shifting problems

25 posts in this topic

First post here :)

Here is the problem I'm having... the car was on idle and the traction control & check engine lights came on, followed by hard starts (like if you were dropping the clutch instantly on a manual car), a blank screen and sometimes the 3 bars. The next day everything was fine, no lights, the car drove fine until it was left on idle for 2-3 min and both lights came on again. I've checked the wiring harness between the gearbox and the ECU. There were 2 damaged(just the insulation, not interrupted)  wires from the intercooler's intake plastic piece. I also cleaned the gear position sensor and greased the o-ring. The actuator is lubricated and a washer is welded on the rod because the clutch release fork has a hole. After everything was done, I started the car and let it idle for 45 min(all good, no lights). As it's cold outside, it didn't reach operating temperature. After a 2h drive(all normal) I got back home and let it idle for 15min. The lights came back on. The car would not shift into gear with the engine running or if it does, I can hear like a slight gear grinding and the car kinda moves a bit without me touching the gas pedal. With the engine off and the ignition on, It shifts better but sometimes it hesitates or it would go into 6th gear from N with some grinding/clicking noise from the gear change motor. It makes me think there is a problem with the clutch not disengaging. The actuator's rod extends well into the bell housing when the ignition is on and when the engine is running. Any ideas guys? 

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Could the washer used on the actuator be catching on the shift fork? I think most people have used an acorn nut (welded or threaded the rod) to fix the holing issue. The round top of the acorn nut more or less fits in the dimple of the fork. I think I'm using an M10 nylon acorn nut threaded on as a preventative measure, no hole in the shift fork. I will be taking the actuator out to see what kind of wear I have and may switch to a brass acorn nut. 

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6 hours ago, Getfuzzy said:

Could the washer used on the actuator be catching on the shift fork? I think most people have used an acorn nut (welded or threaded the rod) to fix the holing issue. The round top of the acorn nut more or less fits in the dimple of the fork. I think I'm using an M10 nylon acorn nut threaded on as a preventative measure, no hole in the shift fork. I will be taking the actuator out to see what kind of wear I have and may switch to a brass acorn nut. 

That's a good point. It looks all good. We can see the marks where the washer pushed against the fork. I just watched this video and the guy is talking about some springs that break in the clutch mechanism. Maybe I'll have to remove the gearbox...

 

20201026_081851 test.jpg

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Hmmmm....?    I would almost say the washer is too big around and not allowing the clutch arm to move evenly as it's only contacting on one side of the arm which would mean it is pushing it off to one direction and causing strain on the throw out bearing...? UNLESS there is an equal mark on the side we can't see in this picture...? In that case ignore this suggestion.  I would bet you need to reteach both actuator and transmission back in using a STAR system......so I would be putting the word out to find someone other than a dealership to do this for you for far less than a dealership. UNLESS they are far cheaper in Quebec than they are in Ontario...lol.   That fork looks very rusty imho.......good old Canadian salt winters....sad to say.
Also make sure there is good conductivity from wire to connector within the actual connectors. I have heard some have issue with wires being broken inside the crimp of the connector itself causing signalling issues to get things to operate correctly.

 

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3 minutes ago, Willys said:

Hmmmm....?    I would almost say the washer is too big around and not allowing the clutch arm to move evenly as it's only contacting on one side of the arm which would mean it is pushing it off to one direction and causing strain on the throw out bearing...? UNLESS there is an equal mark on the side we can't see in this picture...? In that case ignore this suggestion.  I would bet you need to reteach both actuator and transmission back in using a STAR system......so I would be putting the word out to find someone other than a dealership to do this for you for far less than a dealership. UNLESS they are far cheaper in Quebec than they are in Ontario...lol.   That fork looks very rusty imho.......good old Canadian salt winters....sad to say.
Also make sure there is good conductivity from wire to connector within the actual connectors. I have heard some have issue with wires being broken inside the crimp of the connector itself causing signalling issues to get things to operate correctly.

About the marks on the fork, there is another one that we don't see on the picture. I ordered a Delphi scanner and it should arrive in about 2 weeks.... Even if the problem is intermittent, the solution could be just reteaching the transmission and actuator? The check engine and traction control lights turn on mostly after I had driven the car for some time and the engine is warm and I let it idle a few minutes. If I start the car with the engine cold in the morning and let it idle (I've tried up to 45min) everything is ok. When I get the fault code I turn the engine off for a few minutes and when I restart it, the fault is gone until I stop and let it idle again for some time. Sometimes, It takes 2-3 shots until I'm able to go...  

 

 

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Just a stab in the dark....have you looked at your reluctor rings at all...?  Maybe a slim chance...they could be doing this?  Or at least setting off a warning light or something? I know there is a specific code for them but...maybe?

Are you sure that Delphi can reteach the transmission and clutch actuator...? I do not know?  I have a STAR so do not use anything else, sorry. 

I left my car idling at my nieghbor's house while I went in to speak with him, it was 45 minutes I bet before I came back to it. The lights were flashing and a few warning lights were on . I shut it off and checked oil etc etc etc, then tried to start it, it wouldn't for a while....but I finally got it started after leaving it for a short time then went and retaught the clutch and transmission and it started working properly again and I have never let it idle that long again and have had no similar issues. I still don't know why it happened. I don't have any new burn marks on any connections or in the SAM or ECU etc.....yes I have had them all out to check. You never know if something I did caused a fire issue...etc. Nothing out of place etc. I have all the typical relays installed. I also have a secondary fuse panel to power anything that I add to my car so it never effects the electrical system of the car. It pulls directly off the battery through a relay off the key.  I have been told that this car is very electrically complicated  for what it needs to do. That is why I use the added fuse panel as not to upset the system. Have you added anything that may have upset your system???

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3 minutes ago, Willys said:

Just a stab in the dark....have you looked at your reluctor rings at all...?  Maybe a slim chance...they could be doing this?  Or at least setting off a warning light or something? I know there is a specific code for them but...maybe?

Are you sure that Delphi can reteach the transmission and clutch actuator...? I do not know?  I have a STAR so do not use anything else, sorry. 

I left my car idling at my nieghbor's house while I went in to speak with him, it was 45 minutes I bet before I came back to it. The lights were flashing and a few warning lights were on . I shut it off and checked oil etc etc etc, then tried to start it, it wouldn't for a while....but I finally got it started after leaving it for a short time then went and retaught the clutch and transmission and it started working properly again and I have never let it idle that long again and have had no similar issues. I still don't know why it happened. I don't have any new burn marks on any connections or in the SAM or ECU etc.....yes I have had them all out to check. You never know if something I did caused a fire issue...etc. Nothing out of place etc. I have all the typical relays installed. I also have a secondary fuse panel to power anything that I add to my car so it never effects the electrical system of the car. It pulls directly off the battery through a relay off the key.  I have been told that this car is very electrically complicated  for what it needs to do. That is why I use the added fuse panel as not to upset the system. Have you added anything that may have upset your system???

That's weird... I haven't added anything extra to the car. I don't even use the radio... The reluctor rings look fine. They have an oily coating. Maybe somebody had sprayed them with something. What I also find weird is that even in N the clutch is still disengaged. That means it's like hold the clutch pedal on a normal car all the time instead of shifting out of gear...  

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Maybe that washer is too big and not allowing the clutch fork to release enough to disengage the clutch? But why now?  It was working fine before with it right? So what has changed? What is holding it from not returning to it's released position? It has to be the actuator, maybe? Take it off, clean it completely , check to see if it's damaged inside or not? It is a bit of a bitch to get the cover back on after taking it off if you grind all the rivets off in a hurry etc. But it can be done. I have done a few now with great success. I'd spray plenty of degreaser into it first and then anti-sieze and re install using a light or firm pressure against the clutch fork and see what happens. If it's still doing it I'd take it apart and look inside. Does the actuator have enough movement in the attachment pins to allow it to get zero pressure against the clutch fork ...? If not there's something wrong.

 

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2 minutes ago, Willys said:

Maybe that washer is too big and not allowing the clutch fork to release enough to disengage the clutch? But why now?  It was working fine before with it right? So what has changed? What is holding it from not returning to it's released position? It has to be the actuator, maybe? Take it off, clean it completely , check to see if it's damaged inside or not? It is a bit of a bitch to get the cover back on after taking it off if you grind all the rivets off in a hurry etc. But it can be done. I have done a few now with great success. I'd spray plenty of degreaser into it first and then anti-sieze and re install using a light or firm pressure against the clutch fork and see what happens. If it's still doing it I'd take it apart and look inside. Does the actuator have enough movement in the attachment pins to allow it to get zero pressure against the clutch fork ...? If not there's something wrong.

 

I can't post a video here... The actuator is lubricated and the rod extends well into the hole in the bell housing. The teeth on the plastic part inside the actuator look good. The shaft on the motor looks good too. No sign of corrosion on the pins. The only thing I could think of is if the actuator bugs sometimes and it doesn't extend the rod all the way out( short of a few mm) so it looks ok from underneath the car but it doesn't fully disengage the clutch. I don't know how likely this scenario is.

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This is why I ask if the plastic teeth on the arc wheel have been stripped maybe at that area inside? The spring is seriously strong inside that moves it back so it should return to normal position unless serious messed up internally but if the teeth are damaged inside it may not go far enough which would hold up the clutch  from disengaging the transmission gears etc. if that is worded correctly or not? Before you take it apart I do not know can it be powered from a 12 volt source without damaging it to see if it will do a complete cycle ??? That I do not know? I do not remember if I have powered one up to run a cycle my memory isn't what it once was it seems...augh!!! There must be a thread on this somewhere....youtube or over on evilution...check before doing it.....makes sense it should be able to accept 12 V and do it's thing? Then spring back to come back to normal position allowing clutch fork to be free of pressure. I'm sure I've done it I just don't remember doing it as I have had a few ruined actuators and it would be me trying it for sure...lol.  I just do not want to tell you to do so and it ruins your actuator.  Just saying.

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2 minutes ago, Willys said:

This is why I ask if the plastic teeth on the arc wheel have been stripped maybe at that area inside? The spring is seriously strong inside that moves it back so it should return to normal position unless serious messed up internally but if the teeth are damaged inside it may not go far enough which would hold up the clutch  from disengaging the transmission gears etc. if that is worded correctly or not? Before you take it apart I do not know can it be powered from a 12 volt source without damaging it to see if it will do a complete cycle ??? That I do not know? I do not remember if I have powered one up to run a cycle my memory isn't what it once was it seems...augh!!! There must be a thread on this somewhere....youtube or over on evilution...check before doing it.....makes sense it should be able to accept 12 V and do it's thing? Then spring back to come back to normal position allowing clutch fork to be free of pressure. I'm sure I've done it I just don't remember doing it as I have had a few ruined actuators and it would be me trying it for sure...lol.  I just do not want to tell you to do so and it ruins your actuator.  Just saying.

Thanks, I'll look into it. What I did is I removed the motor from the actuator to be able to see the teeth then I moved the arc wheel with a flat screw driver to see the rest of it. At some point it snaps to the fully extended position. All the teeth looked good. 

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This just gets the mechanical issues out of the way, now it's electrical...I hate electrical...lol

 

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8 minutes ago, Willys said:

This just gets the mechanical issues out of the way, now it's electrical...I hate electrical...lol

 

My fear too...I already redid some solderings inside the SAM because they were cracked but that didn't help... 

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8 hours ago, Willys said:

Are you sure that Delphi can reteach the transmission and clutch actuator...? I do not know?

 

the one i have does not

 

ive just installed my actuators by hand with a bit of tension applied and it always worked just fine

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if it wants to crawl with actuator applied ...i would suspect something damaged inside the pressure plate

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2 minutes ago, LooseLugNuts said:

 

the one i have does not

 

ive just installed my actuators by hand with a bit of tension applied and it always worked just fine

You are the reason I said this, I knew you had one but didn't know how much it will do...?

 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

its good for reading and erasing codes in powert train ,air bag and some brake systems

 

and it does keys

 

probably a few other things i cant remember but i know for sure there was no clutch teach for a 2005

 

i also have the wow wurth snooper which is basically the same 

Edited by LooseLugNuts

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I found out today the STAR does bleed the brakes similar to other higher end scanners.  Didn't do it but spent far too many hours staring into the STAR screen reteaching my good car's transmission and actuator. Then checked everything else I could find in the STAR that may help me before trying to actually start it.  Fingers crossed...!

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Today I shot another video from underneath the car on a cold engine when it shifts like it's supposed to and compared it to when it doesn't shift normally. Looking at both videos it looks like the rod extends less when the shifting problems are present. I don't know if there is a way to post the videos here. The next step would be to drive the car until it start acting up again and then lift one wheel, get it into gear, press the clutch manually and ask somebody to turn the wheel. It should tell if it's a clutch or actuator problem.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Maybe can you mark the shaft using a junkyard type marking pen, the yellow ones where the shaft pushes into to and cycle it many times while watching it? That way you have less chance of guess work as to how far it actually does travel...? I will still say the last few teeth on the half moon shaped sprocket could be damaged in some way if it doesn't always go in the same distance every time. OR is there any sign of the shaft getting pinched or held up on anything as it travels?  Just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it works......lol.   Sometimes it's the simple things that cause the problem and we simply over look them searching for a far more important issue to blame for our issues.  Yes I am one of those folks for sure.  K.I.S.S.  is a definate workable system...lol

 

Maybe remove the large washer and as you suggest install an acorn type addition instead...?

 

Edited by Willys

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On 10/28/2020 at 7:53 AM, Willys said:

Maybe can you mark the shaft using a junkyard type marking pen, the yellow ones where the shaft pushes into to and cycle it many times while watching it? That way you have less chance of guess work as to how far it actually does travel...? I will still say the last few teeth on the half moon shaped sprocket could be damaged in some way if it doesn't always go in the same distance every time. OR is there any sign of the shaft getting pinched or held up on anything as it travels?  Just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it works......lol.   Sometimes it's the simple things that cause the problem and we simply over look them searching for a far more important issue to blame for our issues.  Yes I am one of those folks for sure.  K.I.S.S.  is a definate workable system...lol

 

Maybe remove the large washer and as you suggest install an acorn type addition instead...?

 

So I removed the dust boot on the actuator's rod to be able to see how far in it really travels. The travel distance is not consistent( the difference is about 1cm). What I realized was on a cold engine with the ignition on the traction control light was off and as soon as I started shifting through R & 1st (it allows me to shift into 2nd gear too without even starting the engine) the traction control light came on. Another thing is when the immobilizer had kicked in ( after the car had been unlocked for some time) I put the ignition on (without pressing the unlock button) and I can hear the gear change motor grinding/chunking and trying to select a gear. Not sure if the gear motor is supposed to get power before disabling the immobilizer. I got my hands on a 451 clutch actuator. I will try to swap the motors and see what happens. Although I don't think it would be a faulty actuator reading the other posts on the internet with the same problem. 

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here is a little update.. I tried plugging the 451 actuator motor and even though the plug fits, it gave me a blank screen. So I guess it's electronically different from the 450. I installed a 450 used actuator and that cured the traction control light. Now the p0702 code still shows and the clutch is still semi engaged. If I try and push the clutch fork with a screw driver it disengages the clutch. I also tried installing the actuator with some pressure on the fork but it didn't help. Another issue is when I put the ignition on(with the shifter on N) the gearbox starts shifting between gears. 6 shows up on the screen followed by an arrow down. As soon as I press the brake pedal it shifts to neutral. Am I supposed to reteach the gearbox after replacing the actuator? Or my problem would be elsewhere?

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I know this is going backwards possibly...but....have you checked all grounding pins for perfect grounding points for all in the engine compartment? Take them apart and check each for conductivity and corrosion. Plus the big main ground wire engine to body. I installed a second wire from sub frame to engine also just because it is out and easily accessible. 
Now what did you do to the ECU, The one attached to your air box?  I accidentally cooked mine while trying to clean the pins using a toothbrush type brush and sensor clean spray. I simply saw a flash run across the suds and it was done. I had two or three corroded pins with green and white crud on them. All down one end of the plug. I also opened up my ECU to peer inside and found some water staining. No damages but staining. There are capacitors inside that hold a charge which I somehow shorted across some pins, BEWARE...it's an expensive screw up...!
I'll say it again, possibly time for a re-teach for both actuator and transmission....maybe?   But rule out all simple stuff first unless you know someone with  a STAR as the dealership loves to charge heavy for their's.

 

OR, how much drive do you have...?   Maybe time to pull transmission and check clutch etc....not that difficult just time.    At least you will see the complete clutch fork and also throw out bearing's condition. Mine was heavily corroded also. I bought everything brand new from Germany...MW-SMART  clutch complete was roughly $280 plus shipping with was 41 euro's the clutch fork was cheap with bearing as a kit. The transmission is very much like a bike's transmission imho and semi easy to take apart and re-assemble if you are simply after a peek inside for obvious damages etc.  

I'll bet it's a bad throw out bearing etc....getting hung up in it's travel...maybe.   The clutch is expensive here, more than double what I paid from Germany.

Go after everything simple first or things that do not cost you much. Time is free if you are doing the work yourself.....enjoy.....

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20 hours ago, Willys said:

I know this is going backwards possibly...but....have you checked all grounding pins for perfect grounding points for all in the engine compartment? Take them apart and check each for conductivity and corrosion. Plus the big main ground wire engine to body. I installed a second wire from sub frame to engine also just because it is out and easily accessible. 
Now what did you do to the ECU, The one attached to your air box?  I accidentally cooked mine while trying to clean the pins using a toothbrush type brush and sensor clean spray. I simply saw a flash run across the suds and it was done. I had two or three corroded pins with green and white crud on them. All down one end of the plug. I also opened up my ECU to peer inside and found some water staining. No damages but staining. There are capacitors inside that hold a charge which I somehow shorted across some pins, BEWARE...it's an expensive screw up...!
I'll say it again, possibly time for a re-teach for both actuator and transmission....maybe?   But rule out all simple stuff first unless you know someone with  a STAR as the dealership loves to charge heavy for their's.

 

OR, how much drive do you have...?   Maybe time to pull transmission and check clutch etc....not that difficult just time.    At least you will see the complete clutch fork and also throw out bearing's condition. Mine was heavily corroded also. I bought everything brand new from Germany...MW-SMART  clutch complete was roughly $280 plus shipping with was 41 euro's the clutch fork was cheap with bearing as a kit. The transmission is very much like a bike's transmission imho and semi easy to take apart and re-assemble if you are simply after a peek inside for obvious damages etc.  

I'll bet it's a bad throw out bearing etc....getting hung up in it's travel...maybe.   The clutch is expensive here, more than double what I paid from Germany.

Go after everything simple first or things that do not cost you much. Time is free if you are doing the work yourself.....enjoy.....

It could be just a relearn fix but... what could make it forget the settings in the first place? I feel like there is a bad connection somewhere along the ECU wires. When I turn the to position 1 the gearbox starts shifting between gears and 6 appears on the screen with an arrow pointing down. I wait a bit and 2 appears on the screen then the traction control turns on. I turn the ignition off and back on but this time with my foot on the brakes. I can still hear the transmission shift 1-2 times and N appears on the screen. I feel like there is a bad signal for the position of the transmission's controls( actuator and gears) I have no idea if they feed from the same spot somewhere...  I opened the E-box as it's known for corrosion damages but it looked good inside. The connectors were clean too. Next thing would be to remove the seats and look at the wiring harness running underneath. The harness near the E-box was wrapped in black tape so somebody had played with it already... I know people like to puncture the wires to check for current and tape them afterwards which causes corrosion in the long run. 

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In the battery box there is a white connection which goes green if it hasn't been got rid of all together, simply cut out and rejoin wires. Yes your transmission sounds very much like a reteach issue if it's hunting for the correct gear location. It simply works by counting revolutions of the gear change motor to know where it's supposed to be in each gear. So maybe at some point there was a short in that signal and it messed up it's count sequence etc and a simple re teach is all it requires?  It would be my first action seeing as I have a STAR, but depending upon if I could locate someone and pay their charge or going to a dealership and paying their cost....I may try many things before paying out this money?  

I'd be searching high and low for someone near you who possibly has a STAR system and going to them.....keep looking, use many different avenues such as FB, KIJIJI, etc etc etc....you may get lucky...?  A reteach doesn't take that long to do and I'd also get the actuator retaught while you are  there .....it's usually a simple charge to help the owner re-coop some of the cost to set the STAR system up in the first place.    OR....IF you plan on keeping this car or buying another after this one...maybe setting up your own is a thing to think about?

 

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