Delayed Start

[ACSTECH 9]

Get ready for this story;

2005 450

my son took the car to work on the 31st. Stoped on the highway for some diesel and went to work. When he went to leave and go to his girlfriend house the car would only crank and not start.

He called me because the battery couldn’t turn it any more, I had him leave the keys in it and grabbed my boat battery to go boost it. Boat battery would only crank it still. I could hear the low pressure pump working, I figured to try boosting directly off the truck. Came to life no problem.

took it home and figured it has been weak in the winter so it’s probably time for a new battery. Went and picked up a new battery and installed. Plugged it in over night and came out the next morning and it was hard to start but it did start.

son took it to his girlfriends place overnight and on the way there (after 45km driving) it lost power and CEL came on. He pulled over, turned it off and tried to turn it back on. Would only crank. After 15 minutes it started and he made it to his destination. The next morning the g/f father checked the code and it came up low fuel pressure. They tried to start it and it would only crank. They plugged it in again (plugging in I mean the cord on front) and I drove there to recover it. After 3 hours plugged in it still would only crank. I used a HD battery they had and it started. I brought it home and started working from easiest up, I changed the fuel filter, same issue, low pressure pump is working, high pressure CP1 was rebuilt about a year ago.

it’s working now but it takes approx 5 seconds of cranking before it will start. I drove it to work (105 km) and turned it off. Turned it back on and it still took 5 seconds of cranking. It almost timed out but did start.

mom down to thinking it may be the fuel pressure sensor or possibly glow plugs (changed about a year ago).

 

Looking forward to everyone’s ideas and suggestions.

[Willys 747]

Hi:

Does the starter spin at the same rate when it won't start and when it does start?  IF you take the belt off the alt, will the alt spin easily and freely by hand or is there some resistance as in crud building up inside it? I rinse mine every time i wash the car then spray WD-40 into ALT simply to keep water out. How old is starter? Maybe it is on it's way out and requires a bit more juice to turn? Can you wiggle the exciter spade connection or is it tight on the tab on the starter? Maybe it needs tightening up? What does the high tension braided cable between the solenoid and the starter motor look like? Fried or still solid?    Then we come to everyone's favorite, injector nozzles and cleaning your injectors. Sonic cleaning and buy new nozzles. Maybe the spray pattern isn't as good as it needs to be and it requires a faster rotational spin to get the compression built up faster to ignite the fuel mixture? No leaks on the pumps? And as you say fuel line sensors...? Have you done the low pressure pump bypass mod yet, relays? Have you taken down your SAM to inspect the board and pins for bad solder joints on the pins for the pump and also the other issues like head lights? Checked the plug for burned up connectors?   Sorry but there is a long list of maybe's......and it always happens when the weather is bad it seems. Never on a warm summer's day.   Good luck.  Keep us informed.

[ACSTECH 9]

Working out the schedule of who needs a vehicle when and I will be able to pull injectors Tuesday after work.

I will pull off the nozzles and use the ultrasonic cleaner on them.

My question is this:

I use my ultrasonic cleaner for reloading ammunition. I use hot water, a few drops of dawn dish soap (blue) and Lemishine dish detergent booster.

This works great cleaning out carbon and deposits from inside of casings and primer pockets.

 

What does everyone else use in their ultrasonics to clean injectors?

[ACSTECH 9]

On 1/20/2021 at 9:33 AM, Willys said:

Hi:

Does the starter spin at the same rate when it won't start and when it does start?  IF you take the belt off the alt, will the alt spin easily and freely by hand or is there some resistance as in crud building up inside it? I rinse mine every time i wash the car then spray WD-40 into ALT simply to keep water out. How old is starter? Maybe it is on it's way out and requires a bit more juice to turn? Can you wiggle the exciter spade connection or is it tight on the tab on the starter? Maybe it needs tightening up? What does the high tension braided cable between the solenoid and the starter motor look like? Fried or still solid?    Then we come to everyone's favorite, injector nozzles and cleaning your injectors. Sonic cleaning and buy new nozzles. Maybe the spray pattern isn't as good as it needs to be and it requires a faster rotational spin to get the compression built up faster to ignite the fuel mixture? No leaks on the pumps? And as you say fuel line sensors...? Have you done the low pressure pump bypass mod yet, relays? Have you taken down your SAM to inspect the board and pins for bad solder joints on the pins for the pump and also the other issues like head lights? Checked the plug for burned up connectors?   Sorry but there is a long list of maybe's......and it always happens when the weather is bad it seems. Never on a warm summer's day.   Good luck.  Keep us informed.

Alternator was replaced not that long ago so I am hoping it’s not that. As for starter it is original and there I have not done any bypasses or pull down the Sam unit but from what I’ve seen it looks like it’s brand new under there right from the dealer. This week after work there’s gonna be a lot of investigating into this car.

[Willys 747]

I use just some simple purple degreaser, automotive grade, nothing harsh like carb cleaner in my sonic cleaner.  How big is your cleaner? IF you can get the body into it also that is good too. Just not the very top  where the electronic side of it is. But it's good to get at the central area if you can.  I think mine is a 6 litre version but don't quote me on it...lol. I know I can sit 3/4's of a 4 barrel carb in it, all but the last inch or two.  Same for the injectors, they lean on the top edge  and get cleaned. Strapped so they can'

t slip in.  Don't mix up the parts of the injectors, they are machined as a unit. IF you are thinking of replacing the nozzles, then they imho are the only part I would swap out, that is the nozzle set, nozzle and needle. I have done a few now with zero bad results. Research here somewhere where you can get them, around the $50 each mark. So well worth the expense imho. The difference from old worn nozzle and needle to new is obvious when you compare the two spray patterns.  BUT, a good cleaning will hopefully open up the existing nozzles to flow better  fingers crossed.  Anything is better than dirty old ones. Just DO NOT stick any wire down the holes or use a wire brush on the  nozzle, you will deform the edge of the holes if not close them over.  Speaking from experience on a junkyard trial injector.  BEWARE...

Hope this helps.

[ACSTECH 9]

Ok, hour and 40 minutes of my evening and only a single beer. Injectors out and cleaned and back in. I tested the spray patterns before and after with no noticeable difference. They seemed brand new. Installed and same issue. 5-6 seconds of cranking to start. I am leaning towards starter. I am going to roll it out of the garage tomorrow and boost it with the truck cold to see if it’s just needing more juice.

Tomorrow evening will be another beer and car on ramps and starter inspection.

[Willys 747]

Hmmmm....fuel pressures...?   low pressure fuel pump and also high pressure pump? Has the high pressure pump ever been rebuilt?   Any signs of a leak on it anywhere? What about glow plugs and the reading they are supposed to have to be good or bad...? I think that number is .9    do not quote me on that.....but it rings a bell. Research it here as it has been discussed plenty of times. 

The next bigger issue is, beware from what I have read somewhere that our cars do not like more than what they normally get voltage wise when starting.....battery only stores a specific charge ...? But another running vehicle may zap it with their full load voltage and cook something..?  I seem to remember something like that pertaining to our cars more than others or is that simply newer cars over older cars ...?  Might be worth checking or simply using boost vehicle none running after a good charge on it?

Just a thought?

 

Injectors out and in....did you buy new compression washers that live under the injectors or re-use the old ones?  IF you did re-use the old ones, maybe spray some soapy water down around the base of the injectors to see if a tight seal is there or not and you are loosing compression?

 

[ACSTECH 9]

6 hours ago, Willys said:

Hmmmm....fuel pressures...?   low pressure fuel pump and also high pressure pump? Has the high pressure pump ever been rebuilt?   Any signs of a leak on it anywhere? What about glow plugs and the reading they are supposed to have to be good or bad...? I think that number is .9    do not quote me on that.....but it rings a bell. Research it here as it has been discussed plenty of times. 

The next bigger issue is, beware from what I have read somewhere that our cars do not like more than what they normally get voltage wise when starting.....battery only stores a specific charge ...? But another running vehicle may zap it with their full load voltage and cook something..?  I seem to remember something like that pertaining to our cars more than others or is that simply newer cars over older cars ...?  Might be worth checking or simply using boost vehicle none running after a good charge on it?

Just a thought?

 

Injectors out and in....did you buy new compression washers that live under the injectors or re-use the old ones?  IF you did re-use the old ones, maybe spray some soapy water down around the base of the injectors to see if a tight seal is there or not and you are loosing compression?

 

Low pressure is running, high-pressure is good just rebuilt it about a year and a half ago I think. No signs of leaks anywhere. Glow plugs were also just replaced A year ago

I’ll go get a battery load tester from a friend and check to ensure the new battery I bought is good and not just a one off garbage one. however with the small cars I think you are right I probably should just boost it from the truck without the truck running.

I needed to new rear tires so while I was at Mercedes I bought the new washers for the injectors.

 

Once I get this fixed I think the car will be going for sale if you know anyone interested. No time to keep on the maintenance and too cheap to be taking it to a shop.

[ACSTECH 9]

Well finally got around to something. Came across a good price on a crank pos. Sensor. 3 evenings and 4 beer total. Old out, new in, no change. Plus side is I have a new crank sensor.

down side I finished with a freshly opened beer. Now I have to stand here and finish it before going up to bed and telling the wife it’s still not fixed. (Maybe not a bad thing)

It still cranks for about 5 seconds before firing up.

[ACSTECH 9]

Well, this is a new revelation. I went out to move the car out of the garage this morning so I can fix a snowblower and the car really struggled to start and stay running. Got angry and drove down to the end of the driveway and universe is hard as I could and it seem to even everything out. Turn it off and turn it back on, started like there’s never been a problem.

So I would say the final diagnosis of this was a bad crank position sensor. Total work time was maybe four hours but that’s a lot of digging around and not really being too serious about doing it. I did not lower the engineer all I did all the work from the top except when I was popping out the old one I Use the long prybar underneath to pop out the old one. Greased the new one pushed it in place which was quite hard surprisingly. Use the screw to seat the last half centimetre and done. All I did for Access was removed the upper EGR hose and cut some zip ties and move the Intercooler fan over.

 

thanks for everyone’s help and suggestions.

[Willys 747]

Now you can keep it and drive it more...lol. Enjoy.

 

[ACSTECH 9]

I found out I have to keep it until atleast Oct. son gets his G license then (full privileges) otherwise if I got rid of it his insurance would jump from $2400 a year to $5057 a year. So it is cheaper to have and insure 4 cars for 3 drivers.🙄

[ACSTECH 9]

Ok, it has been fixed. I finally made time to investigate more.

 

I suspected it was on one of the two ends of the fuel rail as I could hear the pump priming with no problem.

 

so I cleaned numbers off of the fuel pressure sensor and sourced a new Bosch one from Florida. Normally on vacation that is a good hard two day drive from Muskoka to Miami. It took 33 days to receive it and 11 minutes to install with a beer as that is how I do most of my maintenance.

 

No difference.

 

 So off to go back to eBay to look for a fuel pressure regulator.

 

I found one in Kentucky. That’s a day of travel no problem. I ordered it and was notified my shipment was delivered to the depot in Beijing. Well that’s not Kentucky.

 

Oh well. With everything going on in the world I’m looking at probabaly 2 months to get this.

 

8 DAYS later I have it. 30 minutes later I start it up and the Dorkmobile fires up like it has just come back from a 100km drive. No hesitation at all.

 

It lives again. Thank you all for your input and ideas.

[wagonwheel 2]

Just to be clear, you replaced the crank position sensor and it start to run well, but then you decided to also, at a later date replace the  fuel pressure sensor . Is that correct? all this beer drinking and I'm totally confused!

[ACSTECH 9]

I replaced the crank sensor and it didn’t do anything.it was a fluke. The issue was the fuel regulator on the right side of the fuel rail.

[Willys 747]

You can test the signal for the crank sensor if you can get to the sensor to attach your meter. once you have it attached simply turn motor over and check to see if it reads a signal when the crank goes past the sensor...it is simply an off or on switch signaling devise....no..?
You could always bite into your wiring harness if you so choose and attack it that way, not my first choice but it is possible as long as you do not spike the ECU etc. You can check it with battery disconnected I think as it is simply a magnetic on or off switch, so as you rotate the engine by hand it should show you it either opening or closing when the space on the flywheel is under the sensor, IF this happens you know it should be working.
The fuel rail pressure sensor is simply a pressure sensor, it requires a specific pressure to allow fuel to spray correctly from injectors. You have enough pressure being built from high pressure fuel pump? Also enough volume...?  Have you checked high pressure pump as in it's "O" rings etc? Done a rebuild on it?  Just another easy thing compared to that ignorant crank sensor....replacement.