2006 w450 diesel won't crank.

[Dalesonger 3]

So.. have a w450 diesel. Turn key on get he N ready to start. Turn the key to start and engine won't crank but I can hear the fuel pump come on and then go off after a few secs. Tried several times. 

Have hot wire direct 12volts to starter soleniod and it cranks and starts.

Also noticed, glow plugs come on for just a second. 

 My thinking is the starter relay which I think is #5 relay on the sam board. Not sure if irreplaceable? Oh,  fuse no 1 is good. Please help.. 

  

[Nigel 287]

This sounds like something you probably are already aware of.  The trigger wire connector on the solenoid is known for corrosion and getting a little loose.  Something like long needle nose pliers or a pair of forceps could be used to pull off the connector so you can tighten it up.  While it is off check for power to the connector when key is turned to start.  

 

Nigel

[Dalesonger 3]

No power to the wire....  no corrosion ..  so my thinking is the relay isnt working for some reason. Like i said the fuel pump is running, wonder if the relay can be replaced off the sams board? My guess it might be hard wired/soldered? 

[Willys 747]

From what i have read or seen the relays are a serious pain to replay is even possible.....I'll bet it's not at the relay but in the wiring someplace or maybe even a cold solder joint in the SAM...but don't know where. The SAM is famous for cold solder joints, especially in that single row on the single plug. There have been others but rarely.  Have you checked continuity for the power wire for the starter...?  I would before taking the relays out of the SAM.  Personally speaking that is.
Are you sure the key is sending the signal to the SAM to send it to the starter, or does the power go directly to the starter solenoid from the key?  That I also don't remember..? Sorry.  Then you have to include the immoblizer in this issue...perhaps?  SAM relay swap would be my last place to touch....IF you had use of a STAR, you could try a used SAM and introduce it into your car to see if it solves the issue. Again a far fetched solution before the simple choices.

[Dalesonger 3]

When the key is turned, I get the N on the dash and fuel pump comes on while trying to start the car. As mention before.. i can hot wire direct to starter and the car will start.. clearly there could be lots of issues. Since I don't know much about these cars

 Some say it could be a brake switch, or netural switch , who know what else is between the  and switch relay.  

[Willys 747]

I don't need to hold brake switch to get the starter to turn, maybe to get it to change from a gear to neutral...?
IF you do get the dash to light up correctly and the pump to activate, I agree then it should start ir turn over. IF you can hot wire it so to speak then it's time to pull the seats and lift the carpet and start checking your wiring harness imho.  Also maybe before destroying the inside, take the SAM down and check each plug for any corrosion...?  Also and I get bashed for saying this all the time but have you checked all the grounding pins for corrosion also.?  You must take them apart and check between each wire eyelet as it won't be obvious otherwise when there between the eyelet loops. There is one under the gear shift location, one under the SAM's location on the door post if I remember correctly, another near the battery, another under the forward left side lip of the bodywork under the engine cover, and then also check to see the main grounding strap from engine to bodywork as this also rots to bits!  Also have you checked the little white plug connection in front of the battery in the battery well? It is a well known place for badly corroded pins. While searching for corrosion, near the battery there is a silver box that candian transport installed which again turns white inside......that is if the car came from Canada in the first place.

 

There that should keep you busy for a few hours...lol. Enjoy.  Once you have ruled all these out you won't need to look at them for some time if you use di-letric grease  as you reinstall them etc etc.

[Dalesonger 3]

Thanks so much.. will keep me busy.. have checked the sams grounding strap ..one eye with many wires climp together. Looks ok and to be solid. No doubt the wiring under capet is a must to look at since this car has heavy rust  do to leaks etc..  any ways.. an real electrical diagram, would greatly help.. lol.. again thanks..

[Willys 747]

1 hour ago, Dalesonger said:

Thanks so much.. will keep me busy.. have checked the sams grounding strap ..one eye with many wires climp together. Looks ok and to be solid. No doubt the wiring under capet is a must to look at since this car has heavy rust  do to leaks etc..  any ways.. an real electrical diagram, would greatly help.. lol.. again thanks..

Don't hold your breath for any diagrams or manuals for this car....lol. 
Your best place is this site and possibly Evilution.co.uk for their excellent technical resources and worth their cheapest donation.  But there is no verbal help as you get here. So combine the two and you have the best help money can buy....as they say.  imho.

Did your car originate from Canada? Does it have the silver box near the battery about the size of a thick cigarette package...?  IF it does open it, it will have corrosion seeing as your car is a leaker if it has badly rusted floors. All rust can be repaired if you have the time and skills. That goes for the electrical issues also.  Just like any car. Once you get into it you'll see it isn't that difficult to solve the semi simple things.

Good Luck.

 

[Dalesonger 3]

Came from Canada, i replace the silver box and seems to be working. Yea need carpets out and take care of the rust.. agree.. once I understand the electrical.. everything else will come along.. 

Again really appreciate it all.. will try an post the fix for everyone.. seems this no crank issue is common.. but everyone seems to get wrapped  up with replacing starter or alternator being frozen.. so we shall see.. 

Dale.. 👍

[Willys 747]

We just state to replace these things because we have all gone through it already at some point. We are sharing the fact the starter and Alt are well known issue spots, and seeing as you are experiencing issues around these items it only makes sense to suggest maybe it's time? Yes you should test each before replacing them but, they are so difficult to get at to remove or test it's usually the result that you will never want to deal with them again so you will buy an new one anyway!  Unless fundages are very tight and we all understand that part of the equation too. We get both the starter and alt near me for just over the $225 mark normally.  Sure there may be a deal some place every now and then but this seems to be the price.  IMHO, once you have decided to replace either or both I would strongly suggest you wire them separately as in the large power cable they are now jointly sharing. It will mean that if it happens again you can unbolt each piece and remove them far easier due to the fact you can remove the item from the engine further so it's easier to remove that cable from unit without having to finger feel and work your way through to remove each piece separately.  Yes a bit of a tight spot but it can be done, my good car is wired this way and if I need to replace the beater's starter it too will be wired this way in the future. I have spent more hours lying under my beater than I wish to remember trying to deal with tthis very issue. AUGH....lol

Did you look for the smaller white cable connection in the battery well in front of the battery to see if it too is badly corroded? You should.
Great to know where it came from so we know we are telling you things that relate to what we deal with up here above the border and not guessing so to speak.

 

[Dalesonger 3]

Thanks I am going through everything.. 

[Dalesonger 3]

Well all..Finally got it working.. seems there was power at the starter solenoid wire. Push it back on the spade connector at the solenoid and it started.. thanks to all for he help and support..  

[tolsen 630]

Suggest you now grease that spade connector for protection against corrosion and bad contact.

[Iratama 17]

Hi, I'm having trouble starting my 2006 Diesel CDI Fortwo.  I suspect the starter as the lights come on, etc.. but only clicks and I hear a lot of noise, clunking type noise in the rear of the car when I try to start it.  Perhaps the battery is a little low, but I don't know how to hook to the battery.    I believe I just have to pull back the flooring on the passenger side and I'm going back to the manual to research, but if anyone has any suggestions or anything in the meantime.  I am open to listening    Thanks in advance for any guidance. 

[Willys 747]

Yes pull back carpet, remove foam lump holding compressor etc etc and find battery underneath. Then a simple voltmeter to see what your battery is at. Like i said before 12 plus volts is good, less and then recharge it then check again. IF it won't keep a 12 plus charge it's junk..more than likely.  OK, after that turn everything off you can, then turn key to start position and listen at clunking. Is it a a single clunk or many equally spaced clunks? OR many clunks randomly spaced? OR does it sound like it's going through a sequence the same each time?  IF a random clunk I would suspect the clutch actuator. IF so, then get someone else to turn key and watch the actuator to see how it moves and if you can see any play so to speak in it's throw . After watching the travel figure out if you can hold onto the actuator rod  and fel if it is loose as it isn't touching the clutch fork as it should be firmly pressed against it to be correct. IF it isn't then you need to undo the bolts to loosen it and adjust it so it is firmly pressed against the clutch fork arm inside the bell housing. Once you have done this try again and listen....it may be fixed. IF it doesn't change anything and it is a semi sequence type noise I'll guess it's your gear selector motor either is damaged or requires a re-teach. This means it needs to be taught where each gear is located as in how many revolutions it takes to find each gear. This is done using a STAR machine. IZZY is your friend in this case. You are close enough to him for his help I bet. Same goes for the clutch actuator, it also may re-teaching using the STAR. But it usually works by just adjusting it manually. IF it is the starter it will only clunk when you turn the key, once as it tries to engage the ring gear and spin. IF not enough power is what will cause this more than likely or the starter is old and dead so to speak. Again IZZY is your friend. Unless you like turning a wrench and have the tools to do so. Changing a starter is a nasty job if you do not lower the sub frame, or lift the body away from it in other words. That requires undoing the 4 large bolts at each corner of the sub frame, first of all. Then undoing the air box intake pipe off the air box(4 screws), left side inner fender, You should be able to lift the car up aay from the sub frame after doing this about 4-8 inches depending upon your wiring, fuel lines and electrical connections. All of which should easily allow this amount of movement easily. Choke all wheels front and back so car can't move anywhere. then use scissor jacks  just in front of rear wheels and lift body up.  

 

The clutch actuator adjustment is relatively easy once you get car up on jack stands, no sub frame lowering. Just be careful not to break off the bolts holding it on engine. The little ones tend to like to snap off. Use plenty of penetrating fluid or some heat and bang with hammer to possibly loosen rust?  You must use torx styled sockets....for all star shaped bolts and nuts.


Sorry for long responce.....way too much info I'm sure...lol.

IF all this is too much get in contact with stickman007, IZZY is his name.  

 

Good luck and keep us informed.    Do you have a code reader, if so hook it up and see if it's reading codes or presenting codes, if so what are they?

 

[Iratama 17]

Thank you for all that information!    I don't mind lots of info like you've shared as it gives me a bit of a step by step.  I have reached out to Izzy too.    Thank you so much.

[Leadwing 565]

I have a handy little thing that serves well in an emergency.  It is a long cord with a male cigarette lighter plug on BOTH ends.  Just plug into a friends cig. lighter and yours and start your car.   You can make one up yourself or buy them at automotive stores.

No more pulling up the carpet

 

 

[stickman007 309]

Wow @Willys I’m going to have to start paying for your advertisement! Hahahaha….

 

Iratama had her car dropped off at my place last night. Battery is sulfated on the posts and completely dead. I put the charger on it and will see. I agree that the “clunking” noises were probably caused by the actuator when cycling the key.

 

[Willys 747]

11 hours ago, stickman007 said:

Wow @Willys I’m going to have to start paying for your advertisement! Hahahaha….

 

Iratama had her car dropped off at my place last night. Battery is sulfated on the posts and completely dead. I put the charger on it and will see. I agree that the “clunking” noises were probably caused by the actuator when cycling the key.

 

Just glad she found a solution and you are the closest guy around....not to mention the best guy I know to fix anything Smart Car related.....and yes I'll expect that check in the mail before Christmas......lol...lol....

 

[CRasman 3]

I went through a whole long thing when the wrecker who sold me the car got a ignition key module from a wreck. Car had been running per the family who I got in touch with after all this. Car belonged to a little old man who moved to SW FL around 2015. He died while out and about and that is why the car wound up with a tow service.

 

So I got a lot of help here, built a Star machine and made everting happy. Thing now, I get the N on the dash., turn the key. I get nothing but a heavy clunk behind the seat. I am sure the starter acting up. I have let this car sit for a good two years since I got it, Last year I got the Star computer  made and that's when I got to this. So today I went back at it. I did send the SAM away (in 2020)  to get it programed along with the dash, ECM and the key. They didn't do it right and I proved it to them with vides of the PC running the Star software. They refunded me the money surprisingly. 

 

Anyway. Next weekend I plan to have the back end up in the air and the engine down to where I can get to the starter. I read all the comments here and will look at the SAM voltages, but it was all serviced and they did reflow all the solder per the company. when they had it. 

 

 

One thing I am a little worried about are the cut radio wires. I asked this a year ago so I was told they should not be a problem. This radio is not on the CAN bus. I don't know why someone would steal a Smart radio. The battery I was using is too big to drop in the well, just for testing today. BTW, the key works the locks and the dash is showing nothing bad. The silver box, whatever that is, is there in the back of the picture.  Thanks 

Edited February 14, 2022 by CRasman

[Willys 747]

IF this car has the silver box, I would expect it to be a Canadian car, as the silver box is what transport canada installed in them to get them past our stupid laws.....sorry...lol.  You do not need a radio to get it to run as much as some say you do....you can simply remove or clean up the wiring and re-wire a new after market radio into the car as i have done without any isues.  Far better than any smart car radio as you get bluetooth etc.
IF you change the SAM it must be taught to speak with both the ECU and the speedo computers or it'll never work.  Your STAR will do this for you but it takes a long time to find where in the star to do this(for me anyway) as I rarely need to do it so I forget how I found the area to do it within the STAR.
The silver box should also be opened up to see if it has corrosion and clean it well with vinegar and a toothbrush or proper electrical circuit board cleaner and then resealed I used clear nail polish.  You will also find a 6 wire white connector just in front of the battery in the battery well, check it for being badly corroded and hard wire it. Get rid of connection.
Now come the old tune called check all your grounding pins, everywhere you can find them! And also the rear engine grounding strap from engine to body.
You can jump the starter exciter wire to see if it jumps the starter into life. If so replace starter solenoid connection and grease it well when you reattach it onto the starter.
You can also reteach your gear selector motor for the transmission  and the clutch actuator using your STAR, all good things to do while in this situation imho.

Also about your battery it must have 12.4 volts to start the car etc....a weaker battery just won't cut it.  Check all fuses etc in SAM, I'd also open it up and check it's condition also....just for shits and giggles, it's easy!  Check the well known row of pins that cook themselves and re-solder them if you have cracks around the pins, hard to see sometimes , use magnifiers.

Let us know.

 

[MikeT 744]

It's a US 451 but a lot of that advice is still OK.

[Mjolinor 91]

Check the engine ground wire (as stated above) before anything else.

 

It may just be that. Your symptom has happened to me on two occasions, that damp spaghetti they call a ground wire is a joke.

[Willys 747]

6 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Check the engine ground wire (as stated above) before anything else.

 

It may just be that. Your symptom has happened to me on two occasions, that damp spaghetti they call a ground wire is a joke.

I simply junked mine and replaced it with a piece of welding cable from in your case Harbour Frieght.....cheap and far better than what was there from day one. They also sell the pound crush connectors, or whatever the correct term for them is....A proper crush tool is there also or you can use a ball peen hammer then a punch to finish it off with.

[CRasman 3]

Well I finally got the car up on jacks. The suspension linkage thing off. I have a  transmission jack that slides under a car, so I am using that to support the engine. I took to two right rear engine mount bolts out and dropped the engine a good 5 inches. I took the small flat belt off to make sure alternator is spinning (it is) and I was able to turn the crank with the big bolt so I know the engine is free. I am going to open the silver box and clean it up, thanks. I am not sure if I hear the fuel pump. This is  a Diesel so is it electric?  Even after I dropped the engine, I can barely touch the starter. I am thinking to make the four long drop bolts per directions found elsewhere and lower the engine all the way down. I like the idea of pulling off the wire off the starter and changing it. I have all sorts of connectors (I am ham radio operator) if I can touch it. I found a 4 part video on YouTube (https://youtu.be/ZNDgrbptjQE   This guy had to pull off all the AC lines to get to the starter. Its the same car. That and the throttle body to get the intercooler off. Got to do that to remove the starter.