HOTRDD

2006 CDI cranks but no start

25 posts in this topic

Posted (edited) · Report post

Yup! another crank no start. But I feel like I have checked everything so I am hoping that someone can give me a few more leads. Son was driving our 2006 Fortwo CDI (Diesel) when it suddenly started to lose power, he pulled over and shut it down. After we towed it home it will now crank and possibly run for a few seconds, but it will never stay running, and there is now chance that you can drive it at all. Now I can crank and crank and it sounds like it will start to catch but it won't.

 

Below are all the things I have checked.

- An external fuel relay was added a couple months ago.

- Fuel filter changed and lots of diesel coming out at the rail.

- I tested each injector by removing it, pressurizing it on the rail and then applying voltage manually. All three injectors had good strong spray pattern of diesel.

- I couldn't tell if the wires at the injectors were actually sending voltage as my multimeters wouldn't work with Min / Max function.

- I went through the SAM and didn't find any burnt wires or melted connectors.

- Crank Position Sensor was replaced.

- I have a new strong battery, new alternator, new starter, new glow plugs, timing chain and guide were just done.

 

I don't have a tool to test the high pressure rail as my pressure tester doesn't go high enough.

 

What am I missing or what else can I look for??

 

Edited by HOTRDD

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You absolutely need to read the fault codes. There is no poi t doing anything until you have done that as a first step.

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Hmmmm....?
Get in contact with IZZY (Stickman007) he is somewhat close to you and is the best guy here.....a wizard at trouble shooting and repairs.
You could also search Amazon for diesel pressure tester....they aren't that much if you feel the need to know....I reworked an old injector to see what my compressions were....you need close to 400 psi not the 100 a gasoline engine wants to sputter to life.

You can also pin out all engine bay wiring to check for shorts or breaks. There is a thread  here somewhere that shows that wiring diagram, a very hard thing to locate.....it also takes hours to complete this task and bundles of patience.
You should also check ECU (on the side of the air box) for corrosion first at connection and then internally. BEWARE this animal holds a charge and if you bridge any pins it will be junk and you will require a STAR machine to teach another ECU to speak with your original speedo and SAM.  IZZY has all this.  
OR....you could invest in your own STAR system IF you are planning on keeping the Smart Car in your life for any period of time.

First of all....check all grounding pins and main engine ground strap for any signs of corrosion. I can't tell you how many times this simple thing has solved issues!!!! 

Have you done a leak back test of your injectors? Again Youtube it, best place to see how that is done using plastic water bottles. Best one I saw was from some eastern block country.....a very simple test.

 

Hope this helps.

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Posted (edited) · Report post


Have you given it a slight sniff of either to see if it fires off for a second using it? I wouldn't give it much just enough to see, it will sound very bad as if it is sending a rod through the block compared to normal. 
Check ECU and if you have already uncoupled it previously check for pins pushed in  as in not making contact with unit or plug. Again ground pin just above it to it's right under lip of engine compartment? Take it apart and check each eyelet for corrosion. Main ground strap from engine to bodywork? 

Edited by Willys

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I picked up a set of NOID lights tonight and threw the BOSCH one on all three injector wires. The results for all three were the same. At first crank the NOID flashes quickly twice and then nothing.

 

I tried to pull the ECU but wasn't able to get the bottom screw so I may just drop the engine and then pull it. But the connectors and pins when I pulled the connectors look brand new. Actually all of the wiring on the car looks pretty new. The whole car has very little corrosion on it though it is a little beat up from the previous owner :-(

I still haven't been able to check fuel pressure as I don't have a high pressure tester, and my low pressure tester is missing the connectors. I blame it on my teenagers borrowing the tools.

Even if a good dose of starter fluid sprayed into the intake it won't try and light. Maybe a little at best.

 

 

Edited by HOTRDD

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A neon screwdriver works as well as anything else for these 80v+ injectors. They need around 50 volts to strike so little chance of false triggering and simple to use.

 

 

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No fire with starter fluid spray? Hmmm....?  Could it possibly be out of time? Have you spun it over without injectors in to see what sort of compression it is making, just a ball park guess so to speak, don't use finger or you may be looking for a new finger nail...lol.  Can you weld or know someone who welds? I made a compression tester out of an old injector and a high enough pressure gage......works well enough to tell you if you are at least close enough to get combustion.  380 psi I heard somewhere is the number you are trying for.
My ECU pins had 3 of them with a bit of green on them which is why I attempted to clean them using sensor cleaner and a plastic toothbrush.....as I carefully scrubbed the pins all I saw in the foam was a lightening flash and I knew instantly I had cooked the ECU. So beware.!!! It also had corrosion inside which was easily washed off using vinegar. It was junk but I simply was looking for anything damaged before the lightening strike....couldn't find anything obvious.....

Hmmm...?
Have you thought if it could be your immobilizer causing this issue ...?   I don't know, it just popped into the empty dome I am using as a head at the moment...lol.?????

 

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So tonight we dropped the engine again. We are getting so fast at this that we can get it out in about 15-20 minutes now. Not something I'm proud of.

 

So while my son pulled the EGR, exhaust and turbo off I pulled the ECM and other connectors, opened them up and went through every solder on the boards. These things look brand new. No indication of any issues. However the turbo looks like it is shot, despite a new turbo cartridge a month ago the vanes have so much play in them that they have have made contact and chipped.

 

Would a failed turbo cause a crank but no start? Possibly the ECM is not seeing boost pressure and shuts down?

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1 hour ago, HOTRDD said:

the vanes have so much play in them that they have have made contact and chipped.

 

 

id be worried about where those chips went

 

i suppose theyd get stuck in the intercooler but .....what if 

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The shavings are usually small enough not to worry about.

 

As it is an oil bearing they do have significant play when static but if it has touched the housing then that is too much.

 

Did you check the turbo oil feed when you put the new cartridge in?

 

Whatever is up with the car it aint the turbo that stops it running. They will run quite happily without one but a goldfish has more pulling power.

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I wonder if a failed Crank position sensor could be the culprit even though you just replaced it?

 

I'm not sure how they could fail since it just appears to be a magnetic switch.

 

My OBD showed this error, I purchased a new one but haven't had a chance to replace it yet. Hopefully this week now that the weather is improving

 

CPS fail.jpg

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I'll get back into the car hopefully today as I was on the road all day yesterday. But my son said he ran a compression test and got 240 psi on all three cylinders. Obviously this is low but what is weird is that he would get the same number on all three. Since we recently had the injectors out I wonder if the injectors are maybe not seated properly or need new copper washers. I am hoping to run a leak down test as well.

 

What is odd is that whatever happened it happened quickly, one second my son was driving and then he said it felt like he lost all turbo power and then he coasted it to the side of the road. After that it would not restart.

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Ran another compression test today and all of them are at 280psi. But even with a little oil a wet compression test didn't give us any better numbers. We weren't able to do a leak down test because we didn't have an adapter that would fit the glow plug hole :-(  With valve cover off, everything looks good including the timing chain.

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Just maybe the chain has jumped a tooth...?   Spit balling...?    How high was junior pushing the RPMs when he last drove it?  Something is off imho, you normally do not get all 3 cylinders showing the same low pressures unless something has jumped so to speak. 

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280 psi compression is too low for engine to start but engine should still fire in starting fluid. 
 

Good cylinder compression is 24 to 25 bar. 
 

My readings from October 2010:
No 1 - 24.5 bar
No 2 - 25.0 bar
No 3 - 25.0 bar

 

I agree with Willy that timing must be off so go check your timing. 

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It should have run for a slit second at least using starter fluid spray.....it doesn't require much compression to fire off, so imho something is seriously out of whack....I'm going to be very interested what the final outcome/reason is for this problem.  This is how we all learn.....by talking about our problems openly and figuring them out. We do not have a dealership network or a large array of mechanic who work on these cars who are willing to share their knowledge like the normal vehicles driving along our roads. Everyone knows how to repair a ford or toyota etc  but say you own a Smart and it goes very quiet very fast!  Sorry sir we can't help best scrap it and buy a ford etc....oh by the way we happen to have one sitting in our lot we can sell to you for cheap...AUGH!!!!

OK, figured it out yet...Hmmmm...?????

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Just out of interest did you remove the throttle body to test the compression?

 

I don't know if the 450 CDI has a throttle body but most cars now the throttle body is closed on cranking and it means that there is not a full charge to compress due to vacuum in the inlet manifold so you get low readings.

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7 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Just out of interest did you remove the throttle body to test the compression?

 

I don't know if the 450 CDI has a throttle body but most cars now the throttle body is closed on cranking and it means that there is not a full charge to compress due to vacuum in the inlet manifold so you get low readings.

I don't understand how this works unless the computer can hold a valve open which it can't, it's all mechanical, no?   What am I missing about this theory..? I'm curious..?

 

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My 451s do, both the 45 and the 54. There are so few of the 450 CDIs in the UK. I think Tolsen is the only one I know and I have only seen maybe two or three for sale in the last 15 years.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

My 451s do, both the 45 and the 54. There are so few of the 450 CDIs in the UK. I think Tolsen is the only one I know and I have only seen maybe two or three for sale in the last 15 years.

 

 

In Canada we only got the mileage miser CDI for 2 lonely years 2005-2006.....all the rest were gasoline powered gas suckers compared to the CDI.
Which means it's a 450 and if you want fuel economy in today's world it's the Smart to own.
Plus I see many still on the road around me.....which is surprising considering what the dealership charges people who use them to repair them!!!  Hense so many get scrapped.

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