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"Diesel Inside" performance chips

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Maybe one of us can volunteer to be the contact with them, instead of all of us inundating them with the same questions... i'd be very interested in learning the specific performance numbers from their tuning and how it's installed. Is it actually a "chip" or is it a computer flash like all the other tuning options. I like the idea of a hardware tuning module that can be installed and removed easily for troubleshooting.

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I would stick with the DI Street. Anything that starts causing smoke means you're just wasting fuel by having go through the engine without it being used.

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Hi all, I was contacted by a Smart owner about this forum.NJV: DI Street or DI Sport is indeed the maximum tune for Smarts with stock turbo. Smarts with turbo upgrades or other significant airflow upgrades may be eligible for DI Race or higher (the extra custom chip remapping labour justifies the slightly higher price, DI Race doesn't necessarily mean there'll be smoke). DI Street and Sport are priced the same, the smoke level is up to each Smart owner. In the DI Street/Sport price range we can remap to take advantage of exhaust pipe or intake/exhaust manifold upgrades, if any, as these are minor upgrades.I just took a look at the chip prices from other Smart tuners and I am rather surprised.. $800+ for a 5 minute remap seems a little greedy. The most popular VW TDI chip tuners in NA don't even charge close to that (usually in the $300-500 CAD range). As far as I know we're the only custom diesel chip remapper for TDIs and CDIs in North America and we still only charge around $400 CAD. Smarts are also easier to tune than TDIs because the Smart ECU does not control turbo boost (instead it's controlled by a mechanical wastegate), so for the most part it's only fuel remapping.Cheers,Mark (Diesel Inside)

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Is it actually a "chip" or is it a computer flash like all the other tuning options.

A chip in the ECU (engine computer) can be either de/soldered or flashed through the OBD2 port with the same end result. So "chipping" and "flashing" are ususally the same thing, as far as most customers are concerned. A dongle that can be plugged in-line in the common rail system, or "permanently" plugged into the OBD2 port, is usually just called that; a dongle, tuning box, or tuning module.Very soon we'll have OBD2-port downloaders that can hold 3 personalized (custom) tunes and 1 original tune. Customers can revert to stock tune at home (or anywhere, even on the side of a road) in minutes prior to dealer visits for warranty security. 3 customized tunes are usually for TDIs in mind, with the following suggested features:1. "Off-road" Race tune with maximum performance, EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) disabled to reduce long-term intake manifold clogging.2. Emissions tune, complaint with all provinces and states, EGR fully enabled. Good performance, but with clean exhaust.3. Valet mode i.e. low power. This is for high-power TDIs with in mind.The complete personalized (custom) tuning + downloader package should be within $800 CAD. We email personalized chips to customers who own downloaders, so they do not have to drive to a chip dealer. The chip software is transferred from e-mail to downloader via computer USB port. The turnaround chip for chip updates is usually 24 hours to 3 days with few exceptions.I don't know if we'll adapt this tool to Smarts. If there is sufficient demand I'll look into it.Cheers,Mark

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Smarts are also easier to tune than TDIs because the Smart ECU does not control turbo boost (instead it's controlled by a mechanical wastegate

That's not quite the case. Its a double-fault system in the smart - relying on the WG alone will just run you into overboost problems. - Steven

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TDIs also have this limp mode protection (boost deviation error).

The mechanical wastegate controls turbo boost, not the ECU or the boost sensor. Thus I stand by my statement that Smarts are easier to chip-tune because electronic boost remapping is not required.

... however there's still the extra labour of mechanical WG adjustment to prevent overboost (& limp mode) in some Smarts. The chances of limp mode is higher if the chip is more fuel aggressive (which can turn out to be counter-productive). You sort of took my quote out of context; immediately after that quote I said "so for the most part it's only fuel remapping. " You're right that not all Smarts are necessarily easier to tune as some will benefit from a little WG adjustment, but they're still quite simple!

Cheers,

Mark

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Thanks for the clarification! I usually associate "chip-tuning" with a plug-in module, whereas "remapping" is a software patch. I'll try to use your nomenclature.What i find attractive about the hardware/plug-in tuning module approach is that i don't have to physically take my car to somebody with the hardware and software in order to have a flash applied or my stock setup restored. This is very limiting, as you're pretty much stuck with the tuners that operate in your local area. As far as i know, there's only one shop doing smart tuning in the greater Toronto area, and their prices are more than i'm prepared to pay, especially considering the inconvenience factor of not being able to remove or restore the modification myself.The "downloader" modules you're describing sound VERY interesting, especially if updates can be emailed to customers and loaded onto the module locally from the customer's computer (hopefully compatible with Mac OS X). Being able to choose between three different programs is very appealing. The three modes you described sound pretty much like what i'd want, though i'd want the "high performance" mode to still be clean and efficient if possible.

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The plug-in modules have their benefits - as I argued last year when everyone was saying they suck :) But the ultimate is a DIY remap, which is coming soon. - Steven

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I don't think anyone said anything negative about tuning dongles in this thread, which is supposed to be about chip tuning. I became curious by your post so I checked your website and viola, I see that you sell some! :)

Before I start, I want to note that tuning boxes are perfectly acceptable for Smarts - I would drive one. I however want to post a small overview of tuning boxes and chip tuning in the TDI world.

Tuning boxes/dongles are sometimes (more frequently in Europe, where diesels are more prominent) considered as unprofessional tuning for TDIs because they only alter signals coming out of the ECU and towards the fueling system. A chip tune can update 10+ different maps and because it is within the central engine processor (ECU) it can keep all parameters (fuel qty, fuel timing, fuel duration, MAF, MAP, etc.) in unison. A tuning box in a TDI often exacerbates turbo spikes because of its static surge in extra fuel (more energy for the turbocharger to spool up quicker) and its negligence in boost control. I have had a customer come in last week with a tuning box, wanting a chip instead, and I scanned his codes and saw a Boost Deviation error. The tuning box can be turned down to back off the fueling, but a cleaner and more efficient power gain is achieved by an equal & solid control of both fuel and boost, generally speaking.

Most TDIs have VNT turbos, which are vacuum operated and they are quite sensitive to spikes, which can only be efficiently controlled by ECU remapping. Even for stock TDIs, it's not uncommon to remap ECUs to have better boost control than OEM, from the factory. Every TDI is a little different, like Smarts are. It's especially important in high elevation (e.g. 4,000+ feet) where turbos are more prone to failure.

A new TDI "boost box" came out not too long ago. It's essentially a tuning box that tricks the ECU into thinking the turbo's not pushing enough boost, so the ECU instructs the VNT to push more boost. I have seen major turbo spikes from that box (that often go ignored), and because the ECU cannot see the extra boost, limp mode is effectively disabled, which may be dangerous.

The boost box also does not communicate with the tuning box (to work the fuel & boost control together) and tug-of-war tinkering is required to "get it right." They will never match up to the quality of ECU remapping. This is one reason why ECU remapping is viewed as a more professional way of tuning. The central engine processor can and should be edited to control everything. The said tuning box + boost box combination also costs $800-1,000 whereas a personalized chip remap costs half of that. People can buy a boost valve to control turbo spikes if they do not want get their original boost control source (ECU) corrected, but this is viewed as yet another a band-aid add-on that costs extra. The boost valve may also accelerate wear to the VNT actuation system (I have not seen evidence of this though).

Now, for Smarts tuning boxes are really not a bad thing at all. It's because like limited chip tuning, they only increase fueling (generally speaking). If the Diesel Power tuning box overfuels, causing too much smoke or limp mode, then it can simply be dialed back and that's good convenience. Would I drive a Smart with a tuning box? Absolutely, I would with confidence as I think the Smart turbo is fairly robust with limp mode protection to back it up.

Please don't view this post as an attack on Smart tuning boxes. :) I'm very open to rational discussions.

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I don't think anyone said anything negative about tuning dongles in this thread, which is supposed to be about chip tuning. I became curious by your post so I checked your website and viola, I see that you sell some! :)

No, you're right - got a little crossed-topic there. And i think you misunderstood my statement... I am a proponent FOR tuning boxes. It was others that previously denounced them (because they were selling remaps) and I was busy pointing out their benefits (portability, easy install/removal, and at the time - price). You haven't been here long, so you don't know my reputation... but I really don't push something just because I sell it. I carry the tuning boxes and I also provide remaps... but I call it like I see it, as shown in this comparison thread.But I also want to point something out... as you said, "voila" I sell some... well, that's not true. I offer them for sale, but sell VERY few of them as most people prefer remaps... which are superior in every way EXCEPT: portability; ease of self-install; easy removal for warranty concerns. But lets not kid anyone - they don't provide the same power gains, and they do what they do in a technologically simplistic (and many would argue inferior) way..In fact, just a couple weeks ago I "sold" one of the digi boxes... I emailed him and explained to him his option with RCTS and offered to cancel his order if he wanted (he did). I take care of my customers' needs first rather than flog something they may not want. In his case, he's close to a good reputable tuner and in my opinion he was better off with that instead of the box. Why would I do that? Easy... I now have a loyal customer in Calgary that will probably order other parts from me knowing he can trust I'm looking out for him, so I can finally flog some of this crap I sell... hehe. (yes, that was a joke).Cheers. - Steven

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s_mack: Sorry if I came out a little harsh. I looked through the forums a little lately and your personality/reputation seems good :) I didn't mean to denounce you in any way, I was just curious.I personally know Joe Hafner, the official North American distributor of Diesel Power tuning modules, as he lives 5 minutes from me. I tried his product in my 2006 Jetta TDI and it actually performed well for what it is. I was going to sell either Diesel Power or PSI Motorsport boxes as alternatives to chip tuning if customers can't drive to a chip dealer, but I decided to continue pursuing chip tuning. Our new downloaders that are coming soon will also solve today's chip accessibility problem. Joe Hafner by the way is a VERY nice guy.. probably the most respective business person I have met.

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Thanks for the clarification! I usually associate "chip-tuning" with a plug-in module, whereas "remapping" is a software patch. I'll try to use your nomenclature.

What i find attractive about the hardware/plug-in tuning module approach is that i don't have to physically take my car to somebody with the hardware and software in order to have a flash applied or my stock setup restored. This is very limiting, as you're pretty much stuck with the tuners that operate in your local area. As far as i know, there's only one shop doing smart tuning in the greater Toronto area, and their prices are more than i'm prepared to pay, especially considering the inconvenience factor of not being able to remove or restore the modification myself.

The "downloader" modules you're describing sound VERY interesting, especially if updates can be emailed to customers and loaded onto the module locally from the customer's computer (hopefully compatible with Mac OS X). Being able to choose between three different programs is very appealing. The three modes you described sound pretty much like what i'd want, though i'd want the "high performance" mode to still be clean and efficient if possible.

For future reference:

Terms that imply a chip (actual ECU modification)

  • (the Smart's ECU chip contains 512KB software, which contains many maps e.g. boost control map, fuel timing map that can be altered, hence "remapping"). i.e. "I got my chip remapped"

[*]flashing (the process of uploading 512KB software to the chip. The two common ways to flash are through the OBD2 port and BDM direct flashing to the ECU after it is removed)

[*]chipping (to install a modified chip [software] in an ECU). i.e. "My car got chipped"

[*]de/soldering a chip (a physical chip is desoldered from the ECU, and after being rewritten with remapped software, it is soldered back into the ECU. This is one of the more invasive methods)

[*]socketing (similar to de/soldering. Instead of soldering the physical chip back on, a socket is soldered on and a chip is inserted into the socket. The socket allows future chip swapping without tools - good for updates or allows you to switch back to stock the inexpensive way)

[*]OBD2 (the diagnostics port which you can upload software through to your physical chip in the ECU).

[*]BDM (the process of flashing directly to the ECU circuit board. The ECU must be cracked open. A semi-invasive method).

Terms that imply a tuning box:

[*]tuning module

[*]plug-in box

[*]plug-in module

[*]box

[*]module

[*]boost fooler

[*]boost box

[*]boost module

"Tuning Box" was the original term but it was fairly recently renamed to "Tuning Module." I believe it's because tuning boxes years ago were crude, so the old name has a bad connotation among diesel veterans. Some people still juggle between terms "Box" and "Module" casually today. Tuning boxes have improved lately, but like s_mack said, some people still bash it due to past experience.

I don't know about Mac OS X support but the downloader doesn't require a powerful Windows machine, Win98 may do the trick. You can access any Windows machine, log in your web email account, download the tunes to your downloader, and then call it a day. You probably won't need another chip remap unless you add engine modifications. I'm becoming a Mac convert though so Mac support is something I might look into ;) The final downloaders should be available in the next 1 or two weeks so we'll have final details & pricing then. I will check with the clubsmartcar.ca administrator and policies first, before doing any advertising.

The neat thing about the downloader is you can switch tunes while sitting in your drivers' seat. You won't have to go out back and dig into the engine bay to remove or adjust a tuning module. We can mail downloaders to any Canadian resident, possibly with the option to pre-load Smart tunes so you can get your car flashed 5 minutes after you get the downloader in mail. We'll still be able to provide fine-tunes via email. We also may have a new dealer in Toronto soon, perhaps 1 month from now.

Cheers,

Mark

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Sounds cool Mark!As for advertising... its fair game in the Self Promotions area... discouraged elsewhere.If you're ever interested, I don't mind testing your setup in my car using the same (or as close as possible anyway) conditions as above and add your results to the mix. For complete fairness, it should be done in the exact same location I used before, which is 5 hours away from me now :) So I can't do it on a whim, but with notice it won't be an issue. - Steven

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Sounds good, I can loan you a downloader if it's available to Smarts :) Once a downloader's used in a vehicle, it will be locked to that vehicle only. However if you flash in your original software, the downloader will be unlocked so it can be returned to us for re-use or resale after your testing.I may need to update the downloader to include support for all Smart CDIs and I don't know how long that'll take, probably not very long as it's just a driver issue, not hardware issue. I'll post here or PM you when there are updates.Cheers,Mark

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That does sound very cool. If the downloader just needs a file put on it via USB, hopefully it can just be done on any computer via drag-and-drop, rather than having to use some kind of proprietary software to do it.Steve, i know this would probably cost some money, but wouldn't it make more sense to compare all the different remap/chip tuning products on a dyno at the same time? It's a bit more of a controlled test, which would give more detailed data to combine with your seat-of-the-pants testing (which is definitely valuable, because the numbers may not tell the whole story) and the "real world" testing with your accelerometer data.

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The G-Tech is supposedly accurate to a dyno within 2%... that's good enough for me. I'm not going to spend $185 a pop on dyno runs for the sake of data :) Its not really seat-of-my-pants. I control the net weight of the vehicle... use the same vehicle... and the same test scenarios. The only reason there would be some taint to this test is because I did all the other runs last year, and this run would be done now - introducing the question of vehicle wear-and-tear. To solve that, it probably makes sense to make a day out of it and re-do all the other maps as well.I like a good controlled lab experiment as much as the next chem-lab-drop-out (I ended up with business degrees instead), but there is absolutely no financial interest in me proving (again) that competitor's maps are as good as mine :) When it just costs me a bit of time and fuel, I'm all over it... but I have my limits.The testing (both published and extra tests I did less formally) has proven to me that the smart has a critical limit when it comes to performance... and all the remaps are more-or-less achieving that limit. I'm sure the case will be the same with Mark's. In the end, I think the lesson we take out of this is that geography should make the biggest impact on your choice since the performance is extremely similar.Mark's more-than-hinted that he's going to blow geography out of the water. I must admit, that is extremely dissapointing to me because I was going to make the same announcement in the next few weeks. I thought I had a corner on that ;) But he's beating me to it. Ce la vie. His option, at his word (no reason to not believe it), sound more feature-rich too... So as a competitor... I'm less than thrilled. But you all know me... smarties before biz!! As a smartie, I'm excited to see his product!! If he can really deliver on-the-fly choose-your-remap-by-circumstance... well, that's what we were all dreaming about in past discussions! Mine was not going to be like that. Mine was simply a way to apply and remove your remap yourself at your convenience.With that said... I stand by my previous vow to offer fair and complete data on anything I test. Remaps are not even close to my primary business... selling parts is. If Mark's becomes a clear-cut winner, then good for it and good for the community! Perhaps he'll cut me in on it since SmartieParts gets a ton of exposure, blah blah hint hint. hehe.Still.. we KNOW nothing yet - a lot of speculation and hope! And that's good too. Here's to looking forward!Cheers. - Steven

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Well, different time of year, different wind/weather conditions, different atmospheric pressure, blah, blah, blah, could all have an effect unless you're going to re-test ALL of the re-maps on the same day again. Adding new results to the old might not be the best comparison.I agree that more options is a good thing. I'm not prepared to pay $500-$800 for a remap. That just seems exorbitant to me. $300-$500 is much more palatable, and more along the lines of a purchase i can justify more easily.

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I can't speak for all the tuners, obviously, but some of us have per-vehicle licensing costs that are higher than that :) Its not just 5 mins of labour and a fancy laptop.You're right about the testing... and I almost certainly would retest all the remaps at the same time. Well... I suppose I'd start with the Mozsimo remap first and if it proved to be bang on to the first round, then I wouldn't see any need to do the full battery again. But if it were out by any significant margin then yeah... the whole thing would be repeated. It only took 5 or 6 hours. - Steven

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About all the remap options and tuning boxes available. I got lucky and snagged one from another local board member that he had bought in Germany. It's called the CR power box. You can see his posts about it in the buy and sell section.The reason I got that one was cuz I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars for some extra power but I wanted something that we could use on trips to get us through the hills in BC easier. This did both. I believe you can order them straight from germany. It was about 110 euro's after shipping for him. I've used it on one tank so far and while there was definately more power available and at lower RPMs, our mileage stayed the same. The SG2 reported our average for the tank was 3.9LHK, on paper it worked out to 4.9LHK. So it plays with some settings (fuel pressure I think) that the SG2 doesn't seem to be able to compensate for. It is ajustable as well from minimal gains to full blown (exhaust) smoke show.Anyway, I'm happy with the performance gains it gives and it was less than 100 bucks for me. Plus I was able to pop it out in like 2 minutes when we took our car into the dealer for warranty repairs.

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NJV.....I never thought about that, but you raise an interesting point. Because these tuning boxes typically alter the fuel delivery after the "commands" have left the ECU, and products such as the scangauge rely on fuel flow reported by the ECU to figure out mileage, it makes sense they would no longer be accurate. It will be interesting to see if it's possible to adjust the ScanGauge to compensate. I suspect it would be hard, as I assume the increase from the tuning box is not linear, so the "error" could be affected by how you drive.Interesting.....By the way, I've never really found a "downside" to having a remap. Potential warranty issues could be one, and you have to pay the cost of course, but I have not really noticed any other issues. I have the same fuel economy and more power (when I want to use it), with no drivability problems.Later! Dang

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I've been wondering if the actual remaps affect the scangauge readouts. I think the difference has to do with the LOD value being inaccurate with the powerbox installed. LOD can be at 99 with hardly any pressure on the pedal and when pushed further there is obviously more power available from the engine which leads me to think that the computer thinks the engine is at max load (in a stock situation) but do to the powerbox it really isn't.My question is, do the software remamps have the same effect or does the change in the parameters mean that the LOD can be accurately read by the scangauge.This should probably be posted in one of the scangauge threads. Maybe I'll copy it there too.

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NJV....I think this is one of the differences between the tuning boxes and a remap. With a remap, the parameters in the ECU itself are altered, so the values sent to the injectors should match what the ECU reports to devices such as the MDC and the ScanGauge. With a tuning box, it's inserted between the ECU and the injectors, so the ECU will not be able to report correct values to the MDC and ScanGauge. It would only report what it sends out, not what the tuning box does with those values after the info leaves the ECU. Bottom line is a remap "shouldn't" affect the accuracy of the gauges, but the tuning box probably does....that's the theory anyway.....Later! Dang

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I'm not sure if it would affect the scangauge... it probably does for the MDC. The SG gets its info from the OBD, not the ECU... so (if I understood correctly) wouldn't that mean the SG would read what the car is actually doing, not what the ecu thinks it is doing? - Steven

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