Performance air intake for 451

[SmartieParts 12]

Any interest in this product?Price is under US$325 plus shipping, taxes.They claim 8HP gain.I'm getting one in for my own tests and evaluation... but its obviously a lot more efficient to get more in at once. So if anyone is interested in getting one at the same time for a slight discount, do let me know. Otherwise wait for the eval! - Steven

[Jibber 0]

At that price, I'd be interested. After driving a 450 with an RCTS remap and a Van Aaken box, my new 451 leaves me wanting more. :)But I gotta start somewhere, and since I haven't decided on the exhaust yet, this intake is perfect!Count me in!

[SmartieParts 12]

Ok, that's two. If we get one more committed then I'll go ahead and order 6 and the three of us will pay a bit less and I'll sell the other three. - Steven

[denisjolicoeur 0]

I tried asking the seller some questions about the engineering and some proof (like dyno charts) to back up his claims and he never answered me.

Too many honest companies (like Breathless Performance) are up front about their own development and engineering and they've said that they've tried many configurations and haven't yet found a good solution to bring AITs down to increase performance (without the danger of having it too low / water).

I'd rather wait for a properly engineered, developed, and proven system from a reputable company. That way I know exactly what I'm getting. I'm sorry to sound so negative but this guy gave me a really bad/bitter taste in my mouth by sidestepping all of my questions. It's obvious to me that he doesn't care whether or not it works well & it's just a cash grab.

I'll wait for someone like K&N that'll back-up their claims, or someone like Breathless who's already made/tried several intakes but won't sell them because they've actually decreased performance.

[SmartieParts 12]

Huh? You mean you asked me? Or you asked who? There's been no mention of who makes this so I'm not sure how you would know who to ask.I don't recall having any such conversation with you about this, and if you mean someone else then I don't think you're talking about the same product. Who is "this guy" that gave you the bad taste? Kind of an odd post really, but if you know something I don't... by all means let me know. - Steven

[SCHMART 0]

he may be referring to this thread on the subject of air intakes, but am not sure how he inferred they were the same........

http://clubsmartcar.com/index.php?showtopi...p;hl=air+intake

Edited June 20, 2008 by SCHMART

[SmartieParts 12]

Well, it is the same one.I'm still confused though. Why the assumption that its not "proper"? They do have dyno charts. I don't get where terms like "cash grab" come in either... its the same as virtually every part made aftermarket for specialty market cars like this... some people with an idea and skills go to work. We should be supporting that, not ridiculing it because they aren't a big name like K&N. Those big names ONLY come into the scene when there's guaranteed money. They mass produce, squash the little guys... that's a cash grab. It is HIGHLY unlikely K&N will ever make a performance system for the smart beyond their base filter. And as you know, they haven't even done that yet.I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion Denis, I just don't get how you formulated it. From the other thread, the guy did respond. I don't know, maybe you had other conversations.I'll say one thing... this is a company that needs folks like me Their communication isn't very professional (just horrendous grammar) but we aren't all good at all things.I'm not saying their product is great. I just don't see how we can say it sucks (OK, literally it does) either... that's why there's the process of a retailer like me getting hold of one and evaluating it.If there's something I'm missing and there's a real reason to believe there's something wrong with this product, let's have it!Otherwise... back to the task at hand.They retail for US$325. If we get one more person on board I think we can make it C$300 plus actual shipping costs. - Steven

[SCHMART 0]

I agree with you Steve..I have one. altho not installed yet and the dyno tests look good.

[denisjolicoeur 0]

Steven,

Yes, my initial impressions were not only from that original thread but also from the several messages I sent to them via the original ebay sale.

There was no description whatsoever originally about how much gain this thing might produce, just claims that it felt much faster (butt dyno)... The only question that was sort-of answered was what you see on that other thread. All of my other technical questions and requests for any kind of data or proof were all sidestepped and never answered.

All I asked were simple questions like air intake temperature comparisons (to stock), and dyno comparisons. I was totally ignored and expected to believe their hype and 'butt dyno' feelings?!?!? I'm sorry but I'm not stupid. Maybe some people are ignorant enough to make purchase with just hype and no facts but don't count me in.

If you have facts that I can see, well that's a totally different story, then I'm very willing to take a closer look and maybe even get excited about it. But I just wasn't given any.

MEanwhile, I see threads like this one: http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/forums/f8...ta-behind-7266/

where the vendors are upfront with all the testing and all the data, good or bad. That's up front honesty and integrity!

Edited June 21, 2008 by denisjolicoeur

[denisjolicoeur 0]

he may be referring to this thread on the subject of air intakes, but am not sure how he inferred they were the same........http://clubsmartcar.com/index.php?showtopi...p;hl=air+intake

I believe it was the same picture used in this thread and in the original ebay listing.

[SmartieParts 12]

I dunno, I see your point but its a bit elitist. There's no reason to believe his claims aren't true just because he doesn't have data to back it up. You seem to interpret that as a deliberate hiding of the truth, which must be bad. But the reality could be (I'm just guessing) that they don't have the big dollars to have an in-house dyno or whatever to get immediate test results. Design, then build, then test. You can't have dyno results before you do the dyno test. You can't do the dyno test until you build the item. Anyway... if you want to only go with the big guys that have huge dollars to make pretty charts (which could all be BS) then that's cool... but you shouldn't imply others are stupid for giving a different product a try.I for one don't give a crap about dyno tests that I didn't do myself. Really, I've never believed dynos to be realistic anyway. Seat of the pants is actually more relevant, though not accurate. So how do you make it relevant and accurate? You use something like a G-Tech accelerometer. It gives you REAL WORLD results that are nearly as accurate as a dyno. And if you need dyno accuracy, its because the numbers are so small why bother? So that's the plan here. Install it on my car, give it real world testing using the G-Tech I have here... and see how she goes. - Steven

[SCHMART 0]

I am awaiting the answer from the seller about the dyno test as it shows a 2007 smart.

[denisjolicoeur 0]

Design, then build, then test. You can't have dyno results before you do the dyno test..

Exactly, I totally agree.. But you left out the fourth, and IMO the most important step.

Don't put it to market before you have data to show people. Whether it's done with a dyno or an accelerometer is irrelevent. Just have something.... ANYTHING..... to back up the hype and claims.

Can't AITs be gotten from existing sensors just using a scanguage or any scan tool? Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds to me like it would be a pretty simple test if that's the case..

Anyway... if you want to only go with the big guys that have huge dollars to make pretty charts (which could all be BS) then that's cool...

It's not about how big they are, it's simply about having the integrity of checking to make sure that the part actually works and does what's it's been touted to do... and providing that data to the public when putting it to market. Simply so that the public knows what it is they're buying!!!

[SmartieParts 12]

I disagree. I think its perfectly fine and normal to market a product before full testing and data is complete. How far into that process depends on the product and the risks associated with it. In this case, we're talking about a product that, in the automotive world, has two primary purposes (and which is more important is a matter of opinion): A) increased HP and Appearance.Appearance is a given. You see the picture, you like it or you don't.So the only question is power. They DID do a dyno test and confirmed their theory. Whether or not we can believe that... is yet to be seen.Another thing to consider before blasting a small company as being a "cash grab" for not showing you what you want to see when you want to see it... it takes time, effort and/or money to give you that data. For a start-up firm trying to get off the ground... they may not have any of those to spare. They may have engineering data out the wazoo but haven't had the time to prepare it to show. Just stating the results on some forum isn't exactly "proof" anyway.SCHMART... I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but realize that a 451 is technically 2007+. Its only 2008 from an American perspective. There was a 2007 model year, and it is the 451. - Steven

[SCHMART 0]

The seller has emailed me that it was a typo..it was a 2008

Edited June 24, 2008 by SCHMART

[rawlus 0]

testing by other companies has indicated that the potential performance gains from an open-element filter are mitigated by being stuck inside the hot engine compartment. without some way to draw cooler outside air to the intake, i don't see how this type of contraption is going to produce greater performance or fuel efficiency. i don't know that the OEM filter/intake design is even so restrictive at WOT that there can be realized any gains by changing to a larger pipe and open element filter.as others have said before me - that is alot of money for a pipe and filter with no proven track record.

[SmartieParts 12]

Like every other part made for the smart. Nothing's cheap for this thing... and nothing has a proven track record when its first listed for sale. Its just the way of the world. Its by no means simply just a "pipe and filter" of course. First off, its stainless steel which even raw is very expensive. Second, its a very particularly shaped pipe. Third, it looks like a high-end filter and that's likely $40 to $50 right there.Its not like some kid took a paper towel tube, an elastic and a pine cone and set up a table on his sidewalk with a sign saying "smrt invenchun, pleeze by it"Anyway, the (undue and premature in my opinion) negativity in this thread is going to kill this before it has a chance to be proven either way. Every other time a new product has been introduced there's always excitement and wonder. I must be missing something obvious because I don't get what's different this time. I thought the product looked pretty good! Everyone's entitled to their opinion obviously... I just don't get how its being formulated before anyone's tried it.Cheers all - Stevenps. Jibber... I told them I'll put in the order by Thursday. If I change my mind and don't get any because it doesn't look like there's any significant interest, I can try to get you one at as good of a discount as possible if you still want one after people's comments. Even if its just two there's got to be some savings.

[denisjolicoeur 0]

I must be missing something obvious because I don't get what's different this time. I thought the product looked pretty good! Everyone's entitled to their opinion obviously... I just don't get how its being formulated before anyone's tried it.

I thought it was pretty obvious what's going on here. Rawlus touched on it.

Simply, other threads on other boards, by other companies that are trying to develop similar products, have proved without a shadow of a doubt, that it's extremely unlikely that someone will get it right the first time out without lots of testing and tweaking. Other companies (like Breathless) ARE spending the money for proper testing and development.. They've tried several different configurations and all of these to date have been DECREASING performance.

They've proven that the typical set-up for a CAI that one would do on any other vehicle will not work with this vehicle and chances are extremely likely that most typical configurations will decrease performance, HP and 0-60 times.

With that being said, what are the chances that someone's first try, without testing or data, will get it right and actually increase performance and mileage? IMO those chances are very slim. So why should we spend the money to purchase something that will more than likely do the opposite of what we bought it for?

Other companies are willing to spend their own money to make sure it works before it comes to market. That's part of the end consumer cost! If these guys didn't do any extensive testing and data gathering during development, the $300+ cost is unfounded. Other companies will charge approximately the same money after spending thousands, if not tens of thousands, making sure that the product is the absolute best that it can be.

$$ invested. That's simply part of the development of any product by any reputable company in any field.

[rawlus 0]

how the product "looks" doesn't mean jack unless you're buying it for it's "looks". if they're saying 8hp gain, that's a different story and i am interested to know how they accomplished that when tests on other similar configurations lost torque and/or hp... taking air from inside the smart's engine compartment is not the path to greater performance. air intake temp is pretty easy to measure with a scangauge and every test i've seen thus far has shown the OEM configuration outperforming any in-compartment solutions in grabbing lower intake temps. my armchair analysis tells me that intake air temp is probably a greater factor in performance for the smart than a "freer flowing" filter element. with 1L of displacement in question, i have a hard time imagining the OEM configuration being so restrictive or hobbled enough that any other solution could improve upon it short of Forced Induction, which this solution is not.the path to fitting more air into the system is cooler air - this will not deliver cooler air IMHO.

[SmartieParts 12]

I still think you're making some presumptions :)You're presuming that Breathless is an honest company doing what it says they are.You're presuming they aren't just bad at what they're doing and maybe that's why they can't get it right.You're presuming this company isn't better.You're presuming this company is selling its first design.I can't tell you any of the presumptions are wrong. They may very well all be 100% accurate. But just like I can't take this company's dyno charts as a given, I also can't accept your presumptions as correct without seeing for myself.So while I can fully respect and understand why YOU won't spend the money... I can't understand why you're intent on projecting the doubt onto others. If you KNEW about it, then fine... but its all based on a post on another forum by another company that said they couldn't get it to work. But that's not necessarily relevant as far as I can see.It doesn't matter. I'm not arguing that you're wrong. Just saying I don't see how you can say you're right. Its all unknowns. - Steven

[SmartieParts 12]

Ok, I think I have this company's ear... since they want me to sell their product they probably aren't going to ignore my hard questions. This is what I've posed to them just now:

do you figure you can make a product that a reputable company like Breathless hasn’t been able to? After hooking up my car to the dyno am I doing to see the same results as you? Have you measured the air intake temperature and confirmed you are lowering it? OR, is the OEM filter so restrictive that simply more flow is doing the job (unlikely)? How are you keeping water out?

Let's see how they respond. Then I'll get one or more in. I will run the tests and I WILL publish the results. It will be what it will be and we'll move on, but I'd rather not kill the whole thing with unknowns and pessimism if possible.Incidentally, I've found 8 different models for sale in Europe and the UK varying in prices from about $175 (plastic) up to $440 (stainless) so its looking like several companies have found success in this. Are they all blowing (sucking) "hot air"? - Steven

[rawlus 0]

i don't need a dyno chart or scientific readings. the premise doesn't stand up to logic. hot air doesn't work as well as cold air.it's not this company, it's any company that brings to market a piece of expensive bling with empty promises of increased performance without a sound design based in the world of physics and the data to prove their claims.it is bling, i'll grant you that, and perhaps the raw material is worth what you say it's worth - but for me, it falls into the category of colored wiper blades and lighted washer nozzles.i normally would not even get this riled up, but an 8hp gain claim for a bolt-on part is, in my experience, often unrealistic bordering on fantasy.

[rawlus 0]

that's a good idea smartieparts.

[SmartieParts 12]

i don't need a dyno chart or scientific readings. the premise doesn't stand up to logic.

"smart cars aren't safe. They are too small"We all shake our heads at non-smarties that make those kinds of statements

[denisjolicoeur 0]

I still think you're making some presumptions :)You're presuming that Breathless is an honest company doing what it says they are.You're presuming they aren't just bad at what they're doing and maybe that's why they can't get it right.You're presuming this company isn't better.You're presuming this company is selling its first design.I can't tell you any of the presumptions are wrong. They may very well all be 100% accurate. But just like I can't take this company's dyno charts as a given, I also can't accept your presumptions as correct without seeing for myself.So while I can fully respect and understand why YOU won't spend the money... I can't understand why you're intent on projecting the doubt onto others. If you KNEW about it, then fine... but its all based on a post on another forum by another company that said they couldn't get it to work. But that's not necessarily relevant as far as I can see.It doesn't matter. I'm not arguing that you're wrong. Just saying I don't see how you can say you're right. Its all unknowns. - Steven

Actually I haven't presumed anything at all. The other companies (plural, not just Breathless) have all shared all of their data about all of the configurations that didn't work as expected. All of the info is there for anyone to see. Read all of the other threads on that other forum (do a search of air-intake), there's dozens of them, and you'll see for yourself.I also didn't presume that this company is selling their first design, THEY TOLD ME!!!! In that other thread they said 'we'll do dyno tests in a few days'. In other words they hadn't yet seen any results whatsoever and they were still trying to sell it on ebay claiming 8HP!!!