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@  marchanna : (20 October 2014 - 07:23 PM) No, but I have an infrared gun that would do the job. Unfortunately ( or fortunately) the ED doesn't have an exhaust.
@  Wild! : (20 October 2014 - 05:52 PM) Has anyone out there ever taken a temp reading from the exhaust manifold on the 450?
@  Mike T : (20 October 2014 - 10:27 AM) Yes, all of the below!
@  dmoonen : (20 October 2014 - 09:04 AM) Lol perhaps his smart
@  marchanna : (20 October 2014 - 05:19 AM) Was that directed at all of us or just one very special member? :)
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:23 PM) nine ten I love you
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:23 PM) eight
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:23 PM) seven
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:23 PM) six
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:23 PM) five
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:22 PM) can I have a little more
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:22 PM) four
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:22 PM) three
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:22 PM) two
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 10:22 PM) one
@  Mike T : (17 October 2014 - 07:08 PM) bump
@  SkydiverChris : (17 October 2014 - 12:26 PM) Nope, two more. Phew...
@  SkydiverChris : (17 October 2014 - 12:25 PM) One more required?
@  SkydiverChris : (17 October 2014 - 12:25 PM) Just making a post or two because seeing the tip of that Youtube video in the chat log makes my OCD go cray, cray!
@  dmoonen : (16 October 2014 - 06:28 AM) Well looks anyways, thing still doesnt have any balls. A hybusa swap would be ideal :P

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Smart 450 Cooling System


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#1 tolsen

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 11:17 AM

It is possible we are loosing some heat from heater matrix circuit to the radiator via expansion tank.

In the absence of a suitable cooling system diagram I have added a collection of some self-explanatory images showing the routing of coolant through the system:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

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Posted Image

There is a small valve with a blue plastic ball at top of elbow (that connects to radiator) inside the expansion tank. Any coolant flowing through this valve is loosing valuable heat to radiator. You can see this valve by removing filler cap and sucking out some coolant. I think it is worth while investigating this potential heat leak further. Check it out folks!

#2 Alex

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:24 PM

The return flow from heater goes through the expansion tank?! How not-smart. That should return direct to to water pump. Even without any leakage to radiator there is still heat loss, plus the additional volume of coolant to be heated.Looking forward to your ingenious solution, Tolsen!

#3 bilgladstone

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 01:39 PM

Thank you once again for another interesting detailed look at the smart systems.No wonder they never issued a tech manual... anybody would look at it and say WTF!?Bil :sun:
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#4 bilgladstone

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:37 PM

I wonder if a restrictor at one of these points, where one has easier access than at the engine, might serve the same purpose as your restrictor plug, TK?:sun:
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#5 tolsen

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:46 AM

I wonder if a restrictor at one of these points, where one has easier access than at the engine, might serve the same purpose as your restrictor plug, TK? :sun:

Restrictor plug in its recommended position serves two main purposes and can't be fitted in any different location except perhaps at thermostat itself if redesigned: A. Increases flow through heater matrix so potentially more heat in cabin. B. Increases back pressure over thermostat so the internal brass check valve seals shut thereby loosing less valuable heat to radiator. Volume of coolant system of the Cdi is 4.5 litres (Petrol 160 engine 4.2 litres). Those that read my first post will have noticed (Alex did) that the volume of coolant circulated to heater matrix is unecessarily large. Engine will get quicker up to operating temperature if this volume can be substanially reduced. Its like heating water in a kettle. No need to fill the kettle full if you only need one cup. A quick calc this morning indicates that volume of coolant circulated to heater matrix can easily be reduced by 1.5 litres. This is how I intend to achieve this reduction: 1) Run return from heater matrix in a rubber hose through tunnel (do not yet know if there is space) or in double bottom space and T in just before V - piece at water pump. A separate bleed line connected as near as possible to heater matrix return outlet is required to get air out of the circuit. 2) Blank off both heater matrix connections to expansion bottle. 3) Possibly remove the blue ball fitted in the valve inside expansion bottle. I will know if this is required once I have looked further into the operation of this valve. Running return from heater matix as 1) above but T-ing in at the current point on radiator to water pump return line will reduce volume of circulated coolant by 1.2 litres which may still be quite an improvement. What are your thoughts folks? Who is going to try this mod first?

#6 Pingu

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:37 AM

Thank you Tolsen, for continuing on solving this mystery. Since you can access the heater lines at the expansion bottle, can you install a valve and shut off or severely restrict flow through the heater matrix? Would this cause a problem with the water pump? The heater matrix circuit acts like it has a huge hidden radiator. Another thing that I notice is that the engine cools down very quickly after it is shut down. That seems to indicate that flow in the heater matrix circuit continues after shutdown.
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#7 tolsen

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:13 AM

Thank you Tolsen, for continuing on solving this mystery. Since you can access the heater lines at the expansion bottle, can you install a valve and shut off or severely restrict flow through the heater matrix? Would this cause a problem with the water pump? The heater matrix circuit acts like it has a huge hidden radiator. Another thing that I notice is that the engine cools down very quickly after it is shut down. That seems to indicate that flow in the heater matrix circuit continues after shutdown.

You can clamp flat the most accessable heater matrix hose that connects to top of expansion tank, go for a test run and check how fast engine gets up to operating temperature. Mits and hat recommended as there won't be much heat in cabin. Water pump will still be getting coolant from the bypass so no problem there - coolant will only be circulating around the engine.

#8 Alex

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:44 AM

Another potential problem is that with the heater return into the top of the expansion tank, it splashes into the coolant and causes bubbles to be drawn into the system. Especially if the coolant level is just a bit low. This may be the reason I've heard of airlocks developing. A filled system doesn't "make" air, it comes from somewhere.

#9 tolsen

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:41 AM

Yes that may be the source of air Alex but expansion tank should auto bleed air out when level is right.By the way, I have just done the test I suggested in post #7 above by clamping flat the outlet hose from heater matrix restricting flow to nil. Engine was up to 3 blobs after 3 km of moderate driving stuck behind a fully laden lorry. Ambient temperature was +4 C. It was freezing cold inside my Smart. I can assure you, there is not much heat coming from that electric heater.I think I will proceed with modifying the cooling system pretty soon. Got to tidy up my garage first as too cold, wet and windy working outside.

#10 Pingu

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:14 AM

Thank you for being a man of action. I have been speculating on this for 3 years, but never actually did it.I have never got 3 blobs in 3 km on the hottest summer day at moderate speeds, so the heater circuit sure takes the heat out of the engine. From your test, the engine block, the coolant in the engine block, and the coolant in the radiator were heated up quickly. That leaves the coolant in the heater lines and heater matrix.I have tried to decrease engine warm up time by shutting of the airflow through the heater matrix. i.e by moving the temperature lever to the cool air position. I found that engine warm up is only changed marginally.I am surprised that a Scot would find 4C to be cold. At least the wind wasn't blowing inside the car! lol (My ancestry is half Scottish and half Scandanavian.)

Edited by Pingu, 09 November 2010 - 10:48 AM.

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#11 bilgladstone

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:54 PM

Also 4C here this morning. My usual 87.5km "commute" saw the coolant temperature rise to 65 degrees. The way home - 8.7Km takes me past my mailbox - saw 70 degrees.So that's it for this year. Even on longer trips, I probably won't see 3 blobs again until the spring of 2011.Bil :senile:
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#12 Francesco

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:04 PM

I'm not sure I'll be using Kane's method for lowering the power module again, as you'll remember not long after I completed the mod using it my car was diagnosed as having a broken motor mount.So if you make strides at a solution and require beta testers I'll be sure to inquire with my dealership about getting comped a set of lowering pins. :)
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#13 Mike T

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:18 PM

I am sort of thinking that 200K km (or less than half that in MTL) would be a good time to change engine mounts anyway, as a precaution!

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#14 Francesco

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:21 PM

Continuing OT: with the non-stop stop-and-go traffic here and the world's worst roads, I would suggest the smart's mounts are good for 75K or less here. I had one changed at 60K, and I'm nearing 74 now.
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#15 tolsen

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:14 PM

Continuing OT: with the non-stop stop-and-go traffic here and the world's worst roads, I would suggest the smart's mounts are good for 75K or less here. I had one changed at 60K, and I'm nearing 74 now.

My engine mounts are no longer as good as they once were. Engine seems to vibrate more at idle. My Smart has only clocked 147K (km) but the Scottish roads are very rough and uneven, not smooth like on the Continent and in Scandinavia. I suppose the ride could be greatly improved by fitting standard tyres perhaps 80 profile both front and rear. That is a mod I have up my sleeve, fitting 165/80-13 or similar tyres on steel rims with roll diameter matching the original Smart wheels.

#16 tolsen

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 02:17 AM

I was wondering whether Smart had done some smart coolant system improvements when designing the new 451 Cdi. Regrettably, the thermostat and coolant flow path is very similar or identical to the 450, so I assume it will suffer the same problems with poor cabin heat and slow getting up to operating temperature. Here are some images borrowed from an online Russian Mercedes EPC system showing 451 Cdi cooling system:
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Thermostat and water pump.

Posted Image
Coolant pipes, hoses and expansion tank.

Posted Image
Heater and airconditioning unit.

Posted Image
Radiator, condenser and cooling fan.

There is a noticable improvement in quality and detail of line drawings.

Edited by tolsen, 02 December 2010 - 03:42 PM.


#17 Some Guy

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 10:51 PM

This is a bit over my head. :scratch:If you could bear with me here, just to see if I'm even on the right page... what's essentially being discussed is getting rid of the magenta arrows on the fourth picture?
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#18 bilgladstone

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 11:32 PM

This is a bit over my head. :scratch: If you could bear with me here, just to see if I'm even on the right page... what's essentially being discussed is getting rid of the magenta arrows on the fourth picture?

Or maybe just a partial bypass, reducing the flow through the expansion chamber? B :senile:
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#19 tolsen

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 01:44 AM

This is a bit over my head. :scratch:
If you could bear with me here, just to see if I'm even on the right page... what's essentially being discussed is getting rid of the magenta arrows on the fourth picture?

Yes that is my plan. Piping the outlet from heater matrix straight into radiator return pipe thereby reducing volume of coolant (by 40% perhaps) that need be heated when engine is warming up. I am slightly behind schedule on this modification. Partly because I am still waiting on a special tool to arrive. Smart used some special hose clips named CLIC-E and CLIC-R. I wish to reuse these clips but need a special tool which looks like this:
Posted Image
Sealey Model No. VS1661 shown. I ordered an identical Bergen tool as a lot cheaper.

The other reason why I am late is that I am preparing for a long cold winter. I transported all this wood by Smart in 3 loads:
Posted Image

Perhaps a small wood burning stove in your Smart will keep you warm?

PS. Having trouble splitting some redwood logs. Is there a special trick to it or is my axe too light?

#20 Francesco

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 06:29 AM

A wedge and a big hammer. That's all I got.
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#21 MightyMouseTech

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 06:53 AM

To try and improve the heat on my car, one of the things I was going to try this winter was adding insulation meant for home hot water pipes over the alluminum lines that run underneath the car from back to front. Figure that would prevent the water from cooling off in it's travels.

Part # 100 in this pic...

Posted Image

Edited by MightyMouseTech, 19 November 2010 - 06:54 AM.

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#22 Francesco

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 07:12 AM

Will that alleviate some of the squeaky chatter that happens at start-up until the pipes warm up? Mine sounds like I have a trapped squirrel in there until well into the first blob when it's below freezing out.
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#23 tolsen

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:54 AM

To try and improve the heat on my car, one of the things I was going to try this winter was adding insulation meant for home hot water pipes over the alluminum lines that run underneath the car from back to front. Figure that would prevent the water from cooling off in it's travels.

Part # 100 in this pic...

Posted Image

I shall look into if that is possible when I remove radiator. I am also concerned that the alu pipes may chafe at each end leading to an unwanted leak at the most inconvenient time. Got all my wood cleaved and neatly stacked hence can work on the Smart all day tomorrow. Thanks for the tip regarding cleaving Sameguy. What I need is a proper cleaving axe I think.

#24 Pingu

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:36 AM

I shall look into if that is possible when I remove radiator. I am also concerned that the alu pipes may chafe at each end leading to an unwanted leak at the most inconvenient time. Got all my wood cleaved and neatly stacked hence can work on the Smart all day tomorrow. Thanks for the tip regarding cleaving Sameguy. What I need is a proper cleaving axe I think.

I agree that the best for splitting the "rounds" of your wood is splitting wedges and a sledge hammer. I needed two wedges for when I got one stuck and buried in the wood block. I don't understand the smart cooling system. Does the blue ball in the expansion tank provide the pressurization of the system, and the vaccum relief? If the returns from the heater matrix dump into the expansion tank, is that circuit at atmospheric pressure? I see that the 2 expansion tanks are joined with a small hole.
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#25 tolsen

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 01:13 PM

I don't understand the smart cooling system. Does the blue ball in the expansion tank provide the pressurization of the system, and the vaccum relief? If the returns from the heater matrix dump into the expansion tank, is that circuit at atmospheric pressure? I see that the 2 expansion tanks are joined with a small hole.

It will be a lot clearer tomorrow when I will remove and inspect that expansion tank. I think the blue ball forms part of a non return valve that is supposed to prevent hot coolant from heater matrix leaking to radiator.

#26 Alex

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 02:49 PM

Having just returned from -22 in Calgary, my interest in improving the heat retention is newly piqued. A few thoughts: Is there a better thermostat in a remote housing available, either an OEM from some car or other, or an aftermarket unit? Is the expansion tank in the heater circuit essential for air bubble removal? Perhaps a minimal flow taken from the top of a new three-way valve used to direct almost all the flow back to the engine is preferred? Does it appear that all bubbles would enter the heater matrix flow? In boiler systems they are called air scoops or purgers. I recall reading somewhere that the heater matrix exhausts outside when heat is turned down? Surely it just blocks off, rather than spewing all unused heat outside? Would just filling the channel the pipes run through to the front of the car with an expanding polyurethane foam be worthwhile? http://tinyurl.com/28yzhto and many other brands. Insulates, deadens sound, prevents movement and chafing, not so hard it will cause removal problems should work be needed. And off-topic, what you need for splitting wood is a splitting maul. From the look of your wood a sledge and wedges would be overkill, and a lot slower. http://en.wikipedia..../Splitting_maul Basically a very heavy axe, with a round handle better to lever with, and a thicker less tapered edge less likely to get wedged in the block. For truly massive blocks a sledge and wedges is the way to go, but they are slow and awkward for anything you are likely to find in the UK.

#27 tolsen

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 03:58 PM

A separate bleed pipe to outlet of heater matrix is required in my modification. After the mod, air will normally be bled automatically to expansion tank via the elbow that connects to to radiator. Heater matrix will have to be bled manually.The new 451 has a thermostat that looks identical but different part number. Well worth looking into.There is no heat loss from matrix when heater is turned down as there is an air flap arrangement in heater unit.I need one of them heavy wood splitting mauls or a hydraulic wood splitter.

#28 tolsen

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:19 AM

Another experiment - an elegant solution or what?

It was minus 18 C here this morning and I drove the car for nearly 8 km before engine came up to operating temperature with restrictor plug fitted, fan on intermediate speed and 50% recycled air. Fairly slow speed though because traffic was slow moving due to adverse whether conditions. 110% of the locals drive in snow on summer tyres.

Expansion tank contains a valve and there is a possibility that warm coolant is lost through this valve into radiator. I've been pondering over how to seal or close this valve for a while and suddenly realized that I could solve the problem more elegantly by lowering coolant level in expansion tank.

I siphoned out 7 dl of coolant from expansion tank such that water level (cold coolant) was level with top of radiator. This resulted in the inlet to the valve being in air meaning impossible for warm coolant leaking to radiator.

Objectives of the experiment:
1) Mainly to see if engine warms up faster as less coolant need be heated.
2) To confirm whether any heat is lost to radiator via valve at bottom of expansion tank.

Risks:
I assume there is a chance that air may enter system through above-mentioned valve into radiator. This possibility can be verified by observing level in expansion tank. Main air bleeding point is the temperature sensor at top of thermostat. I assume bleeding is not necessary if you have fitted a restrictor plug. The higher pressure may force the air out via heater matrix.

Test result:
Engine came up to operating temperature (3 blobs indicating on my 450 Cdi) after 4 km of driving at 50 mph. Ambient temperature at start of experiment was -7 C. I had no instrumentation rigged up so not possible to verify objective no 2. There is certainly no heat lost during initial stage of warm up when the valve is above the coolant level. The valve got submerged eventually due to expansion of coolant and then there may be some loss.

You may not be able to repeat above good result unless you have a restrictor plug fitted. Note that the car had been driven earlier but had been allowed to cool for at least 3 hours prior to the experiment. I forgot to record coolant temperature at start of experiment so will repeat later.

I checked level upon returning to base. Coolant level had risen to 15 mm above the valve. Checked again after the car had cooled down to ambient temperature and confirmed level was same as when starting this experiment so no air (yet) in system.

The valve inside expansion tank can be removed using long nose pliers. Mine are mislaid somewhere but may appear any time I hope.

Perhaps some of you can try this out and check if you notice any improvement.

Edited by tolsen, 03 December 2010 - 09:27 AM.


#29 Mike T

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:30 PM

Does your car have heated seats?And minus 18 in Banchory? Holy smokes!!

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#30 Pingu

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:30 PM

The turkey baster has been sacrificed to suck coolant out of the expansion tank. Good thing we're going to my daughter's for Christmas dinner! The car had been driven earlier and then been garaged, so the coolant was at 20C. Sucked out about 1 litre so that there was essentially no coolant left in the expansion tank. Drove a usual route at 50 - 60 km/hr. Ambient temperature +4C. It took 6 km to get 3 blobs -- normal for that speed and ambient temperature with a previously warm car. At the end of the drive, there was a coolant level in the expansion tank. The reduced volume of coolant didn't seem to make any difference to the warm-up time. I do not have a restrictor plug.
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#31 cadillacman

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:08 PM

I had to read most of this a couple times. So much seems little odd. I know in my mind that the heater 'temp' controller operated the lever by the passenger footwell. But it never really registered that this did not control the water flow. I thought about a car I had before and knew well, and couldn't believe that it worked this way, so I went looking for the water control valve for my 77 Rabbit. Sure enough, manual lever water valve. http://www.autoparts..... & Drivetrain So, if the smart heater water always flows .... and the smart engine is hampered from prompt heating by that .... What if we installed a manual shutoff in the line between the heater core and the expansion tank ? Physicsl space/difficulty allowing, would the reduced flow allow the engine to heat up properly? Stop futzing about which route the water might be taking, and have it not flow at all until you deliberately allow it ?

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#32 Pingu

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 03:49 PM

I put back the coolant that had been removed from the expansion tank. I clamped off the heater matrix hose just before it enters the expansion tank, as Tolsen did in Post #9. Then I drove the same route as earlier today 50 - 60km/hr. Ambient temperature +5C. Coolant temperature at start was 20C. It took 2.5 km to achieve 3 blobs! Quicker than I've seen in on a hot summer day. I continued to drive and engine temperature never went above 3 blobs. Temperature of coolant in expansion tank at end of the run was 60C. The clamping off appeared to be complete -- the hose was cool at the end of the drive and no heat came into the cabin during the drive.
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#33 Pingu

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 03:57 PM

Caddy - You said "Stop futzing about which route the water might be taking, and have it not flow at all until you deliberately allow it ?" I think Tolsen's idea is to find out where the engine heat is being lost so that the car will warm up faster, and the heat can be used to heat the car interior. Besides comfort, it is better for the engine and fuel economy if the engine warms up faster. Ever since I got the car, it has bothered me that it takes so long to warm up. It's not that I really need the heat for the car interior in this climate, but that the engine should get up to operating temperature much quicker.

Edited by Pingu, 03 December 2010 - 04:14 PM.

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#34 cadillacman

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 04:31 PM

Caddy - You said "Stop futzing about which route the water might be taking, and have it not flow at all until you deliberately allow it ?" I think Tolsen's idea is to find out where the engine heat is being lost so that the car will warm up faster, and the heat can be used to heat the car interior. Besides comfort, it is better for the engine and fuel economy if the engine warms up faster. Ever since I got the car, it has bothered me that it takes so long to warm up. It's not that I really need the heat for the car interior in this climate, but that the engine should get up to operating temperature much quicker.

Yer right ... we should know where it's happening. Yer right ... that engine needs to get up to temperature faster. Not knocking anybodys intentions, sorry if it was thought of that way. Just surmising on another possible fix that might be readily doable. Like the positive results Pingu had when the return was clamped 'off', get improvised into a readily engineerable product. I cannot find a good picture of that expansion tank ( rear ) area, so maybe I'll off the front this W-E to see if mounting a valve in there is probable.

My name is Bill
I got a 2005 pure coupe + glass roof + heated mirrors

pushbutton start+ cruise control+ seat height blocks
mild re-map+ SCU trailer hitch+ scangauge
LED for CityLight+ LED angel eyes+ euro panels+ alloys
GT exhaust+ GT intake+ water shutoff installed
EGR electronic bypass+ EGR Replacement Pipe and removal of water exchange+ 1 touch windows


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#35 tolsen

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:00 PM

Many thanks for the feedback guys.I have removed the check valve in expansion tank. Shall post photos later so you can all see how it looks like.The check valve is simply a green 8 mm diameter bouyant ball that prevents hot water from expansion tank entering radiator.

#36 Pingu

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:28 PM

Many thanks for the feedback guys. I have removed the check valve in expansion tank. Shall post photos later so you can all see how it looks like. The check valve is simply a green 8 mm diameter bouyant ball that prevents hot water from expansion tank entering radiator.

As you continue your investigation, you should know that problem has occurred since the cars were new. I mention this because I believe yours was older when you bought it. The problem seems to be a built in design fault, rather than an age-related problem.
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#37 Francesco

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:32 PM

700 mL? I can try that when I get home from Jamaica next week. ;)
Francesco

2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||

#38 tolsen

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:47 AM

Disassembled expansion tank check valve:

Posted Image
The black piece prevents the pea sized ball from popping out from the vertical pipe where it sits.

Operation:
The ball is 40% bouyant in the coolant. It sits in a vertically orientated pipe having ID of 8.5 mm. This pipe has an orifice at its bottom where the pipe connects to hot coolant supply pipe to radiator. Diameter of ball is 8.0 mm. Air and coolant in hot coolant supply pipe to radiator will pass through the check valve and into expansion tank. The ball will seal the other way, i.e. there won't be any leakage of hot coolant from expansion tank to radiator unless the seat is contaminated or there is a manufacturing defect.

Purpose:
To vent air when filling cooling system.

Conclusion:
I am now 90% certain that the check valve is not a source of any significant hot water loss. Reducing water level in expansion tank should in theory lead to a shorter warm up time as less water then need be heated. Removing 0.5 litre from max level ought to be on the safe side and not much chance of drawing air into system as check valve will then remain submerged.

I am still determined to go ahead modifying the system by piping discharge from heater matrix straight into radiator return pipe, thereby bypassing expansion tank. Meanwhile I've been running my Cdi with 0.7 litre reduced level in expansion tank. There is still no problems with air and engine appears to heat up slightly faster.

#39 Pingu

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:58 PM

I can't see this ball even with no coolant in the expansion tank. What do you mean that the ball is 40% bouyant?I didn't see any significant difference in warm-up time with a very low level of coolant in the expansion tank, but I don't see that you should have any problem continuing. I think your idea of bypassing the expansion tank with the coolant from the heater matrix is the best idea. I don't see any downside since air can still be removed in the expansion tank when the coolant circulates through the radiator.I usually improve warm-up time slightly by running with the air temperature control all the way to the cool air side. Since I park the car in a garage which is at least +10C, I don't need heat in the cabin until the engine warms up.Previously, you said that the new CDI's had the same coolant system arrangement as the older CDI's. When I drove a gas engine smart, I thought the warm-up was quicker. Do you know if there is a different arrangement on the gas engines?
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#40 tolsen

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 01:55 PM

What I meant by the ball being 40% buoyant is that it floats with 40% of its volume above water and 60% submerged.The petrol engine produces more heat as more horse power but less efficient. Cooling system is identical. Thermostat looks same but has different part number.The key to improving heater matrix output must be to avoid heat losses. Lagging as already suggested perhaps, reducing unnecessary hot coolant leaks to radiator, reducing volume of coolant that need be heated to get hot air out of heater matrix and reducing surface areas where heat is lost.

#41 Alex

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:47 PM

So is it a check valve or a purge valve? Where is the seat, top or bottom? It may function as an air purge valve, as long as it's in coolant it will be floated up against the seat preventing flow, any air and it will drop away from the seat allowing the air out. Needs a very low pressure differential to do this, of course, or just it waits with an air bubble until the engine is off and the pressure equalizes.I haven't looked at it, all I have to go on is your descriptions and photos.Another thought: Is it possible we have a flow in reverse through the radiator? Heater matrix return from expansion tank through radiator bottom to top, returning to expansion tank, some sort of accidental venturi effect driving it? Won't be convective flow in that direction. Possibly a very low cracking pressure check valve in one of the radiator ports needed. (Very low indeed, don't want restrict radiator flow in hot weather)

#42 cadillacman

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 11:21 AM

Regarding the 'heater matrix flow'Using a carefully placed light I can see that the expansion tank is divided into chambers.The entry from the heater matrix enters a corner chamber and flows discretely down into the expansion tank, entering below the water line. If you have the expansion tank cover off you will hardly see the water swirling at all.Indeed , the water does flow regardless of the engine temperature, and regardless of the selection of Hot/Cold on the HVAC control panel.There is space, albeit tight, to place a manual shut-off valve into the line.This would alleviate the unnecessary flow of coolant thru the heater matrix.

Attached Thumbnails

  • ExpansionTank.jpg
  • ExpansionTankHeaterWater.jpg
  • ExpansionTankChambers.jpg

My name is Bill
I got a 2005 pure coupe + glass roof + heated mirrors

pushbutton start+ cruise control+ seat height blocks
mild re-map+ SCU trailer hitch+ scangauge
LED for CityLight+ LED angel eyes+ euro panels+ alloys
GT exhaust+ GT intake+ water shutoff installed
EGR electronic bypass+ EGR Replacement Pipe and removal of water exchange+ 1 touch windows


192,500 km - front brakes + battery + intercooler fan + intercooler + turbo + fr Springs + fr brake pads


#43 tolsen

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 02:06 AM

I've finally sourced some diagrams depicting layout of cooling system:

Posted Image
The small check valve in thermostat valve disc is not shown as I have not yet figured out how to draw it.
Restrictor plug is not part of the original layout. It increases pressure differential over thermostat valve so the small check valve inside it closes thereby loosing less heat to radiator supply pipe.

Posted Image
Above diagram shows the proposed modified system. Doing above modification today. Intend to lag most pipes that loose heat, i.e. two aluminium pipes in tunnel (supply to heater matrix & return from radiator/ heater matrix), return hose from radiator and both hoses connected to heater matrix. Bleed screw will simply be the brass bit of a tyre valve with cap. I'll fit this so it will be accessible from above near expansion tank.
Heat loss in pipes and expansion tank where coolant is being constantly circulated is around 1000 Watts. Amount of coolant circulated to heater matrix will be reduced by at least 1.5 litres. Engine should therefore in theory get substantially quicker up to operating temperature with a modified system.

Edited by tolsen, 12 December 2010 - 02:37 AM.


#44 Francesco

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 06:33 AM

Can't wait to hear the results!
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2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||

#45 Alex

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:23 AM

Your diagram shows flow to expansion tank BEFORE heater? I Thought it was after. And also I would be concerned about no flow to expansion tank to continuously purge any air bubbles. If the thermostat housing's design is such to direct any bubbles out the heater outlet and they don't get purged, airlocks may become a very common problem.Certainly doesn't need full flow to expansion tank, of course! That's the whole purpose of this experiment. Just a tiny trickle out of a purge valve's purge hole.But fantastic work, Tolsen, keep us posted.

#46 cadillacman

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:16 PM

I don't see how re-routing the Heater flow is going to change anything.Whether it goes thru the expansion tank or not, you will get the same flow volume.Admittedly there might be less exposed piping to radiate heat.Waiting to hear the results tho.I'm hoping to get a water shut off working over the holidays.

My name is Bill
I got a 2005 pure coupe + glass roof + heated mirrors

pushbutton start+ cruise control+ seat height blocks
mild re-map+ SCU trailer hitch+ scangauge
LED for CityLight+ LED angel eyes+ euro panels+ alloys
GT exhaust+ GT intake+ water shutoff installed
EGR electronic bypass+ EGR Replacement Pipe and removal of water exchange+ 1 touch windows


192,500 km - front brakes + battery + intercooler fan + intercooler + turbo + fr Springs + fr brake pads


#47 tolsen

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:57 PM

I have arrived the point of no return since I've cut the hose:
Posted Image

Need to fabricate a special T-piece to connect outlet from heater matrix to the short hose that tees into radiator return. A small branch on this T-piece will be my bleed point, obviously hosed to an accessible position for bleeding. There won't be any more work done today as the pub close early on Sundays.

I broke a couple of "Snap Off" T40 bits when unbolting the bumper and upper cross member. Got the oxy acetylene set out in the end and succeded persuading those stubborn bolts. Pulling the aluminium pipes out tomorrow morning. It will be interesting to learn if there is sufficient space for adding insulation. I could use foam but perhaps not to Smart if I need to renew a pipe or two at a later date.

Length of hose in heater matrix circuit will be reduced by 122 cm or 4 ft. No more heat loss from expansion tank, no heat loss from the removed 4 ft of hose, reduction in heat loss due added insulation and less coolant to heat ought to result in quicker warm up time.

#48 cadillacman

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 02:58 PM

awesome picture of our innardsThat one is going in my libraryThanks

My name is Bill
I got a 2005 pure coupe + glass roof + heated mirrors

pushbutton start+ cruise control+ seat height blocks
mild re-map+ SCU trailer hitch+ scangauge
LED for CityLight+ LED angel eyes+ euro panels+ alloys
GT exhaust+ GT intake+ water shutoff installed
EGR electronic bypass+ EGR Replacement Pipe and removal of water exchange+ 1 touch windows


192,500 km - front brakes + battery + intercooler fan + intercooler + turbo + fr Springs + fr brake pads


#49 tolsen

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 04:01 PM

awesome picture of our innards That one is going in my library Thanks

I'll post another picture after I've cleaned and painted over the rust!

#50 Mike T

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:31 PM

I was going to say, what a heap of corrosion on the chassis!

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