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For those of you interested in electric cars..., Why they just aren't feasible...
lebikerboy
post Aug 29 2011 - 09:31 AM
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Here's some info which just goes further to prove why the electric car will never be
a major source of transportation for the masses...

http://seekingalpha.com/article/289828-it-...burn-the-corpse


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Huronlad
post Aug 29 2011 - 10:24 AM
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The issue is not the electric car but the battery. More research time and money should be diverted to mass producing capacitors designed specifically for EV's. No rare earth materials will be needed, charging times become much quicker and capacitors will be much lighter than the batteries they will replace.


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"Kalliste" 2005 Bay Grey Pure, tach/clock pods, panoramic roof, a/c, soft touch, ignition free windows, vertical wipers, Euro turn signals, LED fog lights, LED turn signal side marker lights, Scanguage II, LED interior light, LED license plate lights, LED reverse lights, LED high brake light, UWC wheel covers, tinted windows, Wet Okole seat covers with carbon fibre heaters, under seat drawer, EBC brakes and rotors, Eibach and Boge suspension, Stebel air horn.


"Labeeba" 2011 metallic silver Pure, tach/clock pods, A/C, arm rest, Design 1 alloy wheels, fog lights, all panels colour matched, heated seats, storage bin, oem storage cover, Area451 cruise control, Ultra Gauge, Team Dynamic Smartie 16" x 7.5" wheels, Yokohama S-Drive 215/40R16 tires.
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Alex
post Aug 29 2011 - 01:53 PM
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Capacitors are not a feasible alternative, even the wonderful new ultracapacitors. Nowhere near the energy density needed. They may well have a role to play as their power density is phenomenal, so they can absorb or supply peak surge currents very well, but you need more storage than they are remotely capable of. Ultracapacitors for a limited amount of surge energy, backed up by battery storage energy is an excellent idea. Batteries can be much better storage devices if they don't have to handle sudden surges, especially charge surges (braking).
Energy density = KW/H, Joules etc per unit of weight.
Power density = maximum rate of charge/discharge per unit of weight.
Both are important. Ultracapacitors excel at the later, suck at the former. Far more energy density than regular capacitors, still nowhere near what is needed.
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Huronlad
post Aug 29 2011 - 03:41 PM
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QUOTE
Experimental electric double-layer capacitors have demonstrated densities of 30 W·h/kg and have been shown to be scalable to at least 136 W·h/kg. For comparison, a conventional lead-acid battery stores typically 30 to 40 W·h/kg and modern lithium-ion batteries about 160 W·h/kg.


What energy density is needed to make super caps feasible?


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"Kalliste" 2005 Bay Grey Pure, tach/clock pods, panoramic roof, a/c, soft touch, ignition free windows, vertical wipers, Euro turn signals, LED fog lights, LED turn signal side marker lights, Scanguage II, LED interior light, LED license plate lights, LED reverse lights, LED high brake light, UWC wheel covers, tinted windows, Wet Okole seat covers with carbon fibre heaters, under seat drawer, EBC brakes and rotors, Eibach and Boge suspension, Stebel air horn.


"Labeeba" 2011 metallic silver Pure, tach/clock pods, A/C, arm rest, Design 1 alloy wheels, fog lights, all panels colour matched, heated seats, storage bin, oem storage cover, Area451 cruise control, Ultra Gauge, Team Dynamic Smartie 16" x 7.5" wheels, Yokohama S-Drive 215/40R16 tires.
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Alex
post Aug 29 2011 - 05:57 PM
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I'm no expert in the field. What I took from the bit of research I did was that real-world practical results were more in the range of 5-10 Wh/kg. Big difference between a single cell in a lab encased in a blast shell and a massive bank of them underneath your seat. With the extremely high potential discharge rate they make a pretty good bomb!
I'm not really sure, like I say I'm no expert. Very interesting developments indeed, I'm watching it.
Even at the current state they can certainly be of use for the sudden surges.
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Huronlad
post Aug 29 2011 - 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Alex @ Aug 29 2011 - 09:57 PM) *
With the extremely high potential discharge rate they make a pretty good bomb!


Fuses, breakers, IGBT's can easily and safely limit current.

Gasoline can be very volatile as well.

This post has been edited by Huronlad: Aug 29 2011 - 06:16 PM


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"Kalliste" 2005 Bay Grey Pure, tach/clock pods, panoramic roof, a/c, soft touch, ignition free windows, vertical wipers, Euro turn signals, LED fog lights, LED turn signal side marker lights, Scanguage II, LED interior light, LED license plate lights, LED reverse lights, LED high brake light, UWC wheel covers, tinted windows, Wet Okole seat covers with carbon fibre heaters, under seat drawer, EBC brakes and rotors, Eibach and Boge suspension, Stebel air horn.


"Labeeba" 2011 metallic silver Pure, tach/clock pods, A/C, arm rest, Design 1 alloy wheels, fog lights, all panels colour matched, heated seats, storage bin, oem storage cover, Area451 cruise control, Ultra Gauge, Team Dynamic Smartie 16" x 7.5" wheels, Yokohama S-Drive 215/40R16 tires.
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Francesco
post Aug 29 2011 - 06:25 PM
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LGBTs?


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2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||
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Alex
post Aug 29 2011 - 06:31 PM
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Internal failure, not external is the "bomb" problem. Multiple cells in the same pack, if one fails, doesn't set off the rest, and doesn't stop the functionality of the pack no biggie, if there is a cascading failure look out!
Again, very interesting developments, great potential, far from realization. Not ready for prime time.

This post has been edited by Alex: Aug 29 2011 - 06:34 PM
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Alex
post Aug 29 2011 - 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (SameGuy @ Aug 30 2011 - 02:25 AM) *
LGBTs?


Only those in Vancouver or Montreal will get that, Francesco! biggrin.gif
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bilgladstone
post Aug 29 2011 - 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (Alex @ Aug 29 2011 - 07:33 PM) *
Only those in Vancouver or Montreal will get that, Francesco! biggrin.gif

I think it's pretty commonly understood these days that LGBTs are everywhere!


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Huronlad
post Aug 30 2011 - 04:00 AM
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QUOTE (Alex @ Aug 29 2011 - 10:31 PM) *
Internal failure, not external is the "bomb" problem.


The battery charging monitors on each cell can be used to ensure the batteries are discharging correctly as well. If the cells are not functioning correctly, either shut the whole system down and disconnect the battery out of the system or if the battery pack is broken up into sections, disconnect the affected section and limp the vehicle home.

I suspect the manufacturers may go over board on safety and just have the car stop until the fault is fixed.


--------------------
"Kalliste" 2005 Bay Grey Pure, tach/clock pods, panoramic roof, a/c, soft touch, ignition free windows, vertical wipers, Euro turn signals, LED fog lights, LED turn signal side marker lights, Scanguage II, LED interior light, LED license plate lights, LED reverse lights, LED high brake light, UWC wheel covers, tinted windows, Wet Okole seat covers with carbon fibre heaters, under seat drawer, EBC brakes and rotors, Eibach and Boge suspension, Stebel air horn.


"Labeeba" 2011 metallic silver Pure, tach/clock pods, A/C, arm rest, Design 1 alloy wheels, fog lights, all panels colour matched, heated seats, storage bin, oem storage cover, Area451 cruise control, Ultra Gauge, Team Dynamic Smartie 16" x 7.5" wheels, Yokohama S-Drive 215/40R16 tires.
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quirky1
post Aug 31 2011 - 11:15 PM
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Another reality check: The shocking truth about electric cars
QUOTE
As Dennis DesRosiers, a leading auto consultant, points out, consumers simply won’t pay a $20,000 premium for a vehicle that doesn’t go very far, isn’t very convenient, and runs out of juice as soon as you turn on the air conditioner.

Of course, electric cars aren’t in mass production yet. And the technology is bound to get better and cheaper. Right? Not so fast...Electric cars...aren’t microchips, and Moore’s law doesn’t apply.

Electric cars aren’t necessarily green at all. Electric vehicles require large amounts of electricity – so much that Toronto Hydro chief Anthony Haines says he doesn’t know how he’d get it. “If you connect about 10 per cent of the homes on any given street with an electric car, the electricity system fails,” he said recently. And if the extra electricity isn’t generated by renewable energy, then overall carbon dioxide emissions will go up, not down...

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Huronlad
post Sep 1 2011 - 04:16 AM
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It is going to be sometime before there are 550,000 EV in the GTA to worry about them causing brown-outs.


--------------------
"Kalliste" 2005 Bay Grey Pure, tach/clock pods, panoramic roof, a/c, soft touch, ignition free windows, vertical wipers, Euro turn signals, LED fog lights, LED turn signal side marker lights, Scanguage II, LED interior light, LED license plate lights, LED reverse lights, LED high brake light, UWC wheel covers, tinted windows, Wet Okole seat covers with carbon fibre heaters, under seat drawer, EBC brakes and rotors, Eibach and Boge suspension, Stebel air horn.


"Labeeba" 2011 metallic silver Pure, tach/clock pods, A/C, arm rest, Design 1 alloy wheels, fog lights, all panels colour matched, heated seats, storage bin, oem storage cover, Area451 cruise control, Ultra Gauge, Team Dynamic Smartie 16" x 7.5" wheels, Yokohama S-Drive 215/40R16 tires.
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Francesco
post Sep 1 2011 - 05:56 AM
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A lot of FUD gets spread, most of the arguments laced with herrings of a certain colour. Ontario might have difficulty (doubtful claim), but BC and Quebec would not. The FUD-spreaders claiming pollution will go up fail to mention that the amount of energy it takes simply to refine crude oil into a gallon of gasoline -- before a car ever even gets to burn that gasoline -- is more than the amount of energy used by an EV to go a gallon-equivalent distance. In other words, according to the EPA the current fortwo ED has an 85 MPGe; the amount of energy the car uses to go 85 miles is less than the amount of energy it takes to produce one gallon of gasoline. That gallon ends up in some bubba's Silverado and gets burned off to go 13 miles.


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Francesco

2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||
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Francesco
post Sep 1 2011 - 05:59 AM
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QUOTE (Huronlad @ Sep 1 2011 - 08:16 AM) *
It is going to be sometime before there are 550,000 EV in the GTA to worry about them causing brown-outs.


And as we've said before, most EVs will (logically) be plugged into smart chargers and the Smart Grid. They will be charging overnight and off-peak, when much of Ontario's excess electricity generation isn't being banked (EVs will essentially constitute an energy storage bank), but rather is being burned off needlessly. You can't simply shut down a nuclear or thermal station at night, anymore than you can stop a river from flowing.


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Francesco

2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||
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Alex
post Sep 1 2011 - 10:12 AM
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QUOTE (SameGuy @ Sep 1 2011 - 01:59 PM) *
You can't simply shut down a nuclear or thermal station at night, anymore than you can stop a river from flowing.

Both nuclear and thermal plants can be throttled down, thermal quickly, nuclear less so. Run-of-river plants can be slowed or stopped almost instantly but the potential energy is wasted as river flow. All conventional hydro plants with a dam and lake can be throttled down and the lake just rises a few inches overnight so no waste at all.
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Francesco
post Sep 1 2011 - 11:10 AM
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Do they really throttle down nuclear and fossil fuel plants between 11 pm and 5 am? From all I've read it is even less efficient to do so.

Either way, overnight is when most EVs will be charging. Unless Ontario is running at peak demand when everybody is asleep, I fail to see how "the electricity system fails."


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Francesco

2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||
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Mike T
post Sep 1 2011 - 11:24 AM
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The part missing from that calculus is the energy signature of the raw materials that compose the electric car versus the ICE car.


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cadillacman
post Sep 1 2011 - 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (SameGuy @ Sep 1 2011 - 03:10 PM) *
Do they really throttle down nuclear and fossil fuel plants between 11 pm and 5 am? From all I've read it is even less efficient to do so.


All generating units are engineered to be most efficient at 100 %
Most can be readily throttled, but there is a very real co$t of inefficiency that gets added onto the overall cost of production.
If a thermal generating station has, say 4 units, they will leave 3 at maximum and use one for throttling.
It is also a very co$tly endeavour to bring a thermal generator up to operating temperature from a shutdown, or from a low-operating level, so there is no real possibility of doing that except for planned maintenance.

'Green Generation' from Solar or Wind is so gonna really trouble systems, in that they can't allow more of it than they can have a back-up running in wait.

Yup, I worked in Power Generation for over 10 years ... in a previous life ... in a previous millenium ...




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Francesco
post Sep 1 2011 - 01:10 PM
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Thanks for the info, which is what I had read.


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Francesco

2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||
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Francesco
post Sep 1 2011 - 01:47 PM
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QUOTE (Mike T @ Sep 1 2011 - 03:24 PM) *
The part missing from that calculus is the energy signature of the raw materials that compose the electric car versus the ICE car.

Well, consider that there are less moving parts and simpler mechanicals. A 35 Kg motor versus a 70 Kg engine. No transmission versus a five-speed transmission. Truly, the big difference is the Lithium ion battery pack, and it the case of the ED, it's not even that large. The battery packs in EVs (for now) are very similar to those in laptops, cordless tools and mobile devices. End-of-life recyclability of the Li-ion packs is certainly better than much of an ICE engine and its peripheral systems.


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Francesco

2006 fortwo cdi pulse cabrio phat red/silver|heated leather|PLUS|sound|rack||mods OE cruise|Cabriotec heated glass rear window|custom red silicone cdi TIK|all-LED EU lamps front & rear|OE mud-flaps|colour-coded|garage opener|wiper nozzle|SGII|remap|spin-on oil filter|K&N air filter|RS grille|Painted smart Mods de Dion caps|Hella Micro DE fogs|MDC sucker|R1 Concepts brakes|TK's restrictor mod|LED angel eyes|stainless EGR delete|RS paddles|HEL braided brake lines|Bilstein B14 PSS coil-overs|PowerFlex bushings|Michalak 16" wheels||coming up Blindy|torque damper|Morimoto||
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Mike T
post Sep 1 2011 - 04:57 PM
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I've never seen that discussed other than normatively by gadabouts; someone qualified at an academic institution ought to do a environmental and energy footprint comparison report.


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quirky1
post Sep 25 2011 - 05:55 PM
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A European perspective: The Electric Car Nightmare.
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yellow bumble be...
post Sep 25 2011 - 07:25 PM
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I can see this type argument being made 120 years ago about the present gasoline and diesel powered automobile by the horse and buggy set.

It makes sense to turn all forms of potential energy into electricity and then design all items needing energy to run on electricity.

My 2 cents worth

Roy


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Pingu
post Sep 26 2011 - 12:34 PM
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Here is a report that makes sense to me. Or you can read the summary.

The article from Post #23 sounds like a rant, and I can't follow the calculations. It sounds like he expects that 13 million cars will need to be charged from completely flat in one hour on Sunday night.


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