Why all the AC problems?

[garthD]

OK, so it seems the vast majority of 450 CsC owners have had problems with their AC, and we know the fixes (yearly dealer refill or Duracool/RedTek). My question is why is this happening?The 450 was already 6 or 7 years old when introduced to Canada. That seems more than enough time for a problem like this to have been sorted out. Have European 450 owners actually had similar issues with their AC? Do many Europeans smart owners even bother with the AC option? Was a brand new untested AC introduced with the 2005 450s? Is the 60+ centigrade yearly temperature change that we see in much of Canada the main cause of the problems?Anyone have any answers or speculation??cheers,garth

[Francesco]

"Vast majority"?

[garthD]

Yes, "vast majority". Take a look at the CSC poll where 58 say their AC is failing versus 24 not, or read one of the countless "AC problem" posts.Anyway, call it what you will ( "strong majority" or even just "majority"), it is still a significant flaw of the 450 and it is worth exploring reasons for this flaw.Saying that, this is my only issue with the car...

[yellow bumble bee]

I have had problems each spring with the AC on my car. My 2 cents worth. The smart AC system was designed for R12. When R134a was mandated, car companies had to upgrade their AC systems to accommodate the smaller molecule. Smart did not do this due to financial constraints.Roy

[ianjay]

Greetings:Financial constraints?Volvo has been selling a modestly priced kit which allows old Volvo's (pre 1993) designed with r12 to run r134 for many years. The system has to be evacuated, the lubricating oil changed, a new receiver dryer installed, and a few "o" rings. Works great in the 700/900 series cars, not so well in the 200 series.I doubt even the first smarts were running R12 and a/c is probably not a common option in Europe. Our systems seem to leak all over the place when the 134 is replaced. From the sounds of many on the board, switching to aftermarket propane kits is the way to solve the problem. Those of us still under warranty can either choose to collect as many parts as Mercedes wants to throw at us, or make the switch.Ian

[frankie5string]

Looks to me like they came to Canada with a basic "test charge" in them... and it's up to warranty work to get it up to par... Maybe it had something to do with the way MB Canada waffled on bringing them in for a bit...?

[maxwell smart]

I have a 2005 and a 2006 Smart. The 2005 have all sorts of problems including leaking AC every year. I finally put in DuraCool this Spring after the warranty expired and it's blowing cold air. The 2006 has much less problems @17,000 km (only replaced headlight and AC fan) and the AC is fine for last Summer and so far this year.

[idahosmart]

I have a 2003 smart passion, and it also needs the A/C recharged each spring. So I don't think there was any change to the design of the system for 2005 and later.And Duracool is not sold in my state, as flammable refrigerants are banned is several states.Tom

Edited May 29, 2008 by idahosmart

[bilgladstone]

I think there are several reasons for the reported failures.- improper/insufficient charging from the factory and no PDI inspection of A/C to catch leaks and low pressure condition before delivery.- the CDi engine vibrates so much that the compression seals can work loose if they have not been properly torqued- the pipe run from compressor to condenser (and back) is rather longer than most cars, so the lines can move around and loosen the seals.- a/c much less common in EU and UK due to moderate summer climate (seen several reports of cr@p a/c from SE Asia)- system must withstand seasonal temp differentials from -70C winter to +40C summer, and elevations from 0 to 2000m ASL- the system is intrinsically undersized and underpowered to deliver better fuel economy- although the instruction booklet says to run the a/c system in winter to keep the circulation system lubricated, it gets too cold in most of Canada for the a/c to run (thermal protection locks it out at low temperature)The only good solution is to change out the refrigerant and oil for a high quality propane-based product line like DuraCool. Or forget about a/c and roll down the windas.Bil

[Francesco]

We have 3,794 registered members. 58 say their AC is failing. I did not vote in the poll, and I have no AC problems. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

[Duck]

I wonder how many threads we have on the forum about A/C failing.-Iain

[smartdriver]

We have 3,794 registered members. 58 say their AC is failing. I did not vote in the poll, and I have no AC problems. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

Just for the record you can count me as numbers 59 and 60 (I had mine fail twice in 6 months) and number 61 would be another member of my family with a 2005 smart.I have some Red-Tek and I'm just waiting for my warranty to expire. Edited May 30, 2008 by smartdriver

[garthD]

We have 3,794 registered members. 58 say their AC is failing. I did not vote in the poll, and I have no AC problems. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

Hmmm, I can do that too...We have 3,794 registered members. 58 say their AC is failing AND ONLY 24 SAY IT ISN'T. I DID vote in the poll, and I have AC problems. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. I have the stats from the poll and countless posts to back me up....I'm glad you aren't having AC issues, but you really seem to be in the minority.cheersgarth

[MikeT]

I am expecting my so-far-perfect A/C to fail in a year or two. And I'll do the Dura-cool thing too

[Speedie]

So far so good with mine - but I do run it up in the winter.The newer refrigerant has a teensy tiny molecule size - causes all sorts of grief for leaking compared to propane (what duracool is basically) and old R12. Causes issues with compressors too. Fill levels, extra shrouding, and the right amount of lubricant becomes more critical with the new stuff.Over all R13A has less heat capacity so you have to let it run a bit to get the same amount of cold out of it - the old R12 would freeze the balls off a brass monkey as soon as you switched it on - so don't judge the smart by your 1980 Caddy LOL - takes a bit for the air to get cold.Don't think the original smart was designed for R12 - most of that went away about the 1995 model year. They did have some issues with dud o-rings causing issues from what I read on the forums here.Air conditioning can be funky in a lot of cars - know I have had issues with my Jeep (cracked inlet on the condensor) and Truck (expansion valve and leaky dryer) - so pretty much the norm - keeps air conditioning service shops in business.Cheers,Cameron

[smartie]

I have a 2005 and mine doesn't work every spring either. I got it fixed last year but this year I'm probably just going to roll down the windows, it's getting tiresome. Of course I always forget to run it periodically in the wintertime.

[bero58]

I think there are several reasons for the reported failures.- improper/insufficient charging from the factory and no PDI inspection of A/C to catch leaks and low pressure condition before delivery.- the CDi engine vibrates so much that the compression seals can work loose if they have not been properly torqued- the pipe run from compressor to condenser (and back) is rather longer than most cars, so the lines can move around and loosen the seals.- a/c much less common in EU and UK due to moderate summer climate (seen several reports of cr@p a/c from SE Asia)- system must withstand seasonal temp differentials from -70C winter to +40C summer, and elevations from 0 to 2000m ASL- the system is intrinsically undersized and underpowered to deliver better fuel economy- although the instruction booklet says to run the a/c system in winter to keep the circulation system lubricated, it gets too cold in most of Canada for the a/c to run (thermal protection locks it out at low temperature)The only good solution is to change out the refrigerant and oil for a high quality propane-based product line like DuraCool. Or forget about a/c and roll down the windas.Bil

Hallo from Berlin,I know that you have right. All points are correct.Sorry for my bad english, but I am from BerlinBernd

[RichHelms]

The other reason for the AC issues was the early 2005 smarts had the original program for running the AC. I did a trip to North Carolina and just never used the AC as it was so poor.After returning I had the firmware upgrade along with them topping the coolant and no problems since. I would never propose that the AC in the 450 diesel smarts was great. As I have a cabrio I drive mostly top down in the hot weather.

[Francesco]

Yep, me too. Except for the "hot" part. For me, pretty much "top down whenever nothing's falling from the sky, and the temperature isn't below -5°C..." :DThe last few weeks I've had to run my weekly 15-minute AC cycle with the top down.

[Pondside]

HiWe just bought a 2006 at 58,000km and the dealership is throwing in a recharge. They take it for granted that the AC doesn't blow as cold when you have mileage accumulation ...Funny, my Astro is still blowing cold at 184,000 km ... Oh well, we bought the sunroof model!

[garthD]

Hallo from Berlin,I know that you have right. All points are correct.Sorry for my bad english, but I am from BerlinBernd

Yes, I'll second that. Bil (and the others with similar points) seem to have nicely summed up the reasons for the persistant AC failure in the 450s.Air conditioning is a luxury and not strictly necessary for the running of the vehicle, but if they want to make the smart a success in NA (especially the southern half of NA) then they better have sorted out these problems in the 451 model or there is going to be a huge outcry when 451 ACs start dying next spring...cheersgarth

[Malcolm]

My 2006 had no cool air in the spring of '07, and the same again this spring. So, two failures in two years.According to my MB tech (who I enjoy a solid relationship with), this is a common problem, and it is due to a fitting that leaks. Apparently, it is usually the same fitting, one with an 'O' ring, and the cause is vibration. His standard 'fix' is to check that fitting first, which is invariably the culprit (he says), and then open it, replace the 'O' ring, put it all back together and re-charge the system.Since my car is still under warranty (and will still be – hopefully – next spring), I'll see if my unit goes 3 for 3. If it does, I will have to have words with the friendly folks at MB.I am reasonably consistent with running my A/C in the winter, usually every couple of weeks for about five minutes... something I used to have to do with cars from the '60s to the early '80s. I am disappointned that smart did not cross-reference the A/C to the defroster, which is now common practice.

[ianjay]

I suggest we organize a "group" visit. I'm sure we could get 10-20 smarts together for a parade to MB HQ. We might even get a local news organization interested. We could call ourselves "smartie" (smart Mercedes allows refrigerant to inevitably escape).I'll bake cookies.IanNot proud to be a four time "loser"

[bilgladstone]

I suggest we organize a "group" visit.

I'm sure we could get 10-20 smarts together for a parade to MB HQ. ...

That's a great idea, Ian. Call ahead to make sure a responsible exec can meet with you. Don't be confrontational - you just want to all work together to help MB solve the issue

Good luck, all!

Bil :sun :

[frankie5string]

Well, I got my aircon fixed on my smart. The last heat-wave we had in Toronto resulted in the smart blowing outside-temp air... So in it went.I took it into MB Thornhill - and they're great. They figured out what was wrong and ordered the parts. The parts took about a week to arrive from Germany. In the meantime they were able to temporarily repair the system and put a dye in it to track the leak.So, when the parts came in, it went in for the day. This is a transcription of the invoice:<invoice begins>This part appears to be "Day 1 - Discovery"831205 AIR CONDITIONING ACTIVATION PERFORM 110 WSM 0.104 0001785V000000000 CLIP1 0008675V000000000 O-RING1 0001655V010000000 AC LINE 831235 AIR CONDITIONING FOR COOLING CAPACITY AND FUNCTIONAL OPERATION CHECK (WHEN WORKING ON SYSTEM) 110 WSM 0.20831286 A/C SYSTEM, LEAK TEST PERFORM (SYSTEM CHARGED, WHEN WORKING ON SYSTEM)110 WSM 0.40831762 REFRIGERANT EXTRACT AND CHECK FOR LEAKS, REFILL (WHEN WORKING ON SYSTEM) ALL AIR CONDITIONERS 110 WSM 0.40837870 CONDENSER REFRIGERANT LINE TO COMPRESSOR REPLACE (WITH SYSTEM DRAINED)110 WSM 0.70013990 REAR WHEEL DRIVE MODULE LOWER AND POSITION 110 WSM 0.80This appears to be "Day 2 - Returned for Repair":A/C NOT FUNCTIONING CAUSE: BN837876 EVAPORATOR REFRIGERANT LINE TO CONDENSER REPLACE (WITH SYSTEM DRAINED)110 WSM 0.701 0008675V000000000 O-RING1 0002819V011000000 AC LINE881064 FRONT MODULE REMOVE/INSTALL 110 WSM 0.40COMMENT: 25272 A/C PRESSURES ON LOW SIDE ARE TOO HIGH, HOOK UP GAUGES, CHECK OPERATION - RE & RE FRT BODY PANEL SKIRT, TO ACCESS CONNECTIONS AT A/C EXPANSION VALVE, RE & RE LOW PRESSURE A/C LINE FROM CONNECTOR JUNCTION TO EXPANSION VALVE, REPLACE BLOCKED A/C LINE, REPLACE SEALS FOR A/C LINE FROM EXPANSION VALVE TO CONDENSER.<invoice ends>Phew, what a mouthful, but the car now blows cold - colder than it did when new and I could have sworn last summer I could hear the compressor clicking in and out from time to time - I no longer hear the clicking...

Edited June 24, 2008 by frankie5string