tolsen Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Air in fuel was not your problem. No start was sorted by the oil spray. Initial cause low compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 OK. Especially IF the ECU doesn't try guessing the cycle if there is no clear signal from the "virtual camshaft" sensor. BTW, did you have dry and wet compression figures for your engine? I recall reading somewhere that you went through this exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolsen Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I can't recall whether I did any wet compression test on mine. My readings from 20 October 2010:No 1 - 24.5 barNo 2 - 25.0 barNo 3 - 25.0 bar No 1 half a bar lower than the other two. It turned out this was due to a leaking fire washer seal. My engine also did not start after having sat for a while. A few squirts of red diesel in the inlet duct sorted that out. Got clutch trouble just now so transmission is out. It is a problem with the automatic wear compensating mechanism. I am making a test tool so I can test the clutch and see what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 Yeah, I'm dreading the day I have to mess with the clutch actuator. That is why I went for that test tool that appeared could help with the adjustment. Back to this starting thing. It can't be just triggered by sitting around too long. I've left my vehicle at the airport upwards of 3 weeks without issues a number of times (other than a low battery in -30C temperature). It often sits in my drive for a week or two without being started. I'm thinking if manually turning over the engine is a trigger? When I was messing around with the driveshaft ABS reluctors, I rotated the driveshaft. I would have expected the differential to spin, rather than the engine. I'm speculating that something triggers the ECU to lose track and it goes into some 'hunt mode' that needs good compression to synchronize. BTW, my ABS light is now on. It wasn't before. I must have buggered something when replacing that ABS reluctor ring. I did forget to clean the ABS sensor. I'd be a happy guy if it was as simple as giving it a squirt of brake cleaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I would replace the crank position sensor, it's a magnet and collects fuzz which confuses the ECU resulting in incorrect timing. It's a real bitch to get at, it's located on the rear side of the engine on the bell housing between the engine and transmission. You can't really get at it to meter it until you remove enough stuff that by this point you may as well replace it, same goes for cleaning it, I would hate to put everything back together and find out it's not working, thus confusing your fault finding even more. Canman I try to get remove mine fews weeks ago, but the bolt was stuck.. Even with all the thing remove, we can't get a good position to force on the screw I managed to get mine replaced, I have a similar cold start problem. It changed nothing other than my bank account. I measured resistance of both sensors and the old was twice the resistance of the new. Who knows Its an expensive game. Ive done injectors, fire seals, glow plugs, starter, battery, crank sensor, EGR total delete with emulator, fuel filter, and fuel pump relay all trying to solve my problem. It still takes 3 tries or more to sputter to a start in even 2C weather. The only thing that solved my problem was heat. After installing a Webasto, it starts 100% first try every time. I think we have a similar problem. you mentioned after you had it running it would start after that no problem. The only thing I haven't replaced, that I think about often enough, is my alternator. When you start the car it runs its first 10 sec or so off the battery then the alternator switches on. This is usually where my car would stall. Heat seems to make it better (not as much of a draw on the alternator right away?) I still wonder somehow if that's my problem. I also ended up doing the fuel pump relay when my car would turn over and not start. Have you checked the N11-3 connector? If its showing signs of melting at all you may have found your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I don't have a cold start problem (yet). On a fresh battery (i.e. the car hasn't sat for more than 1 week), starts just fine down to -25C. Doesn't like it. Chugs for a few minutes after starting. If I have a secondary battery hooked up, I've been good down at -30C to -35C (gets damn cold in Ottawa airport). I've never stalled out when the alternative kicks in. I'm at 143K km on the odometer. Have you checked if your compression is well in spec? That is the most critical thing in a diesel. This is dry compression as well. Don't spoon any oil in there. And make sure your injectors are totally off. Also, is the car cranking at a good speed? I wonder how I could measure this for you. Also, do you have air conditioning? Maybe the a/c clutch is dragging? Edited May 7, 2015 by ayukawa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I have a number of readouts from the Star. I still have it at home if theres something I should check. Everything seemed fine, that's why its so confusing. It cranks good and fast. I do have A/C, haven't checked the clutch. I'm sure my system is leaked out now, seems to last about 12 months. It doesn't explain to me why it starts so well when warm though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Wow. I only dream about having such visibility into the workings of this vehicle. As I understand it, 1) the problems with starting happen at about 2C. 2) the engine is cranking fine 3) if the interior of the car is warmed with a webasto heater, the car starts just fine. What is your current theory? BTW, how would these STAR read outs show the cylinder compression? Iron has about 1/2 the linear coefficient of thermal expansion compared to aluminum. Therefore, I'll hazard that the dry compression on a cold engine will be worse than that of a hot (the pistons will fit looser). So you want to measure the compression on a dry and cold engine (relatively speaking. Not that you have to do this at 0C). Edited May 7, 2015 by ayukawa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 1) the problem happens when the engine is "cold" - first start. Worse when its colder out, not so bad but still present even at higher temps, 10C even 2) Yes it cranks great 3) The webasto is a diesel powered coolant heater. My coolant is 65C when I start the car. Thus so is the engine. Starts like it was never turned off. My current theory is that there may be a lack of compression, or my injection pump doesn't like to start the car. (as I understand it, it injects more fuel on start up then it does at WOT, could be wrong). I took a reading with the star and showed the forum, and I was told the compression was fine. don't remember what it was (I'm no mechanic). My strategy so far is wait for someone on the forum to have a problem, suggest a part to replace, replace it, and see if my problem goes away! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Plan tonight is to pull the HP fuel pump from my parts car, re-do the seals and swap it for mine. See if that helps. It acts like its not overcoming the cracking pressure of the injectors. Some smoke when its cranking, but once it starts its fine. I know a very seasoned John Deere mech who says if it were a tractor that's what he'd do. And farmers are never wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_18 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I will do my compression test soon... One of the GlowPlug was hard to pull out (unscrew not problem), probably stuck in carbon.. Edited May 7, 2015 by David_18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 BTW, I could be mistaken but I don't think this injector style has a "cracking pressure". That is not to say that you need to meet a specific pressure to get a decent spray. But the signal the injector opens it up to the full common rail. This is pretty much analogous to petrol/gas multi-port fuel injection (indirect injection into intake manifold). Cracking pressure applies to the old school diesel with a sequential injection pump. 1 line per injector. In this mode the injection pump needs to overcome the "cracking pressure" to squirt diesel into the cylinder. Below this pressure the injector is not to leak diesel into the cylinder. BTW, you don't have any other suspicious observations? What is your oil consumption rate? This often correlates to worn rings. Does the piston sound change as it warms up? Hard to hear over the injection noise. But piston slap on one cylinder can be heard with some training. It goes away as the engine warms up. Google piston slap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 kdubya, I just noticed that your sig says Grande Prairie. Been there a few times to support our client in the oil and gas sector. Never saw a Smart Car up there. All big pick up trucks. The guys give me a very hard time about my Smart Car. Yup, you need to get the cold start under control for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Doesn't consume oil. Small bit around the turbo, never been concerned. No piston slap that I can hear. I'll try to take a vid of whats happening. Maybe I'll catch it tomorrow morning. I'm the only lunatic who drives a smart in winter up here. The webasto fixes the whole problem. I just don't like to have to run it in MAY! I'm used to looking out my window and seeing running boards and exhaust pipes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_18 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I have a video too, check that and tell me if that look similar to yours ? At ~38 sec, the engine start to run normally : Sorry for the wind... Edited May 7, 2015 by David_18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 Not sure what temperature this was shot ... but doesn't look to be that cold. But certainly a rough idle when cold. Almost dies on you. Have you tried to isolate it to a specific cylinder? I have this mechanics stethoscope that I use for this purpose. I'll guess that you have a bad cylinder (injector, valve, wear). On a 3 cylinder engine, you don't have much room for a lazy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_18 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Yeah, pretty sure is a bad cylinder. The left one, the glowplug was hard to pull out, the 2 others was very easy. A lot of carbon on the injector tip too... Maybe on the valve is cover with carbon and don't close completly... I think my remap did not help, because a lot of smoke when a push it. But the problem seems worst with the stock map than the remap.... Edited May 7, 2015 by David_18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANMAN Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Kdubya, Your screenshot shows the correction (compression) on cylinder 1 at 0.370 compared to over 1 on the other cylinders. Which explains your problem, low compression on cylinder 1 or a weak injector, thus no synchronization. I would swap the injectors between cylinders 1 and 3, clean everything extremely well with brake cleaner and compressed air before doing any work. Then repeat the star machine compression test to see if the readings change to see if it's an injector or mechanical issue. Canman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonSmart Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) OK. So back to the injectors. Are they getting a pulse signal? I spliced in with my adapter (mangled it to 2 pins now). Oddly enough, when cranking there was nothing showing up on my multimeter (old school analog). I had expected to see a voltage spike. Hmm. Maybe the impedance of the solenoid is too low. Or is it a piezoelectric? In which case, I should see a hefty voltage spike since the piezo is high impedance. I replicated that I got a weak pulse if the connector was open circuit. These .8L diesel engines have the exact part number injectors as my 2002 2.7L MB Sprinter van, and they are piezo electric with a Pulse Width Modulated signal IIRC, and MB designed them to not receive a signal from the ECU if the cam position sensor & crank sensor are not in sync. And IIRC PWMS are not detectable by regular voltmeters. I hope this info is correct & helpful to someone Edited May 8, 2015 by NelsonSmart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 Kdubya, Your screenshot shows the correction (compression) on cylinder 1 at 0.370 compared to over 1 on the other cylinders. Which explains your problem, low compression on cylinder 1 or a weak injector, thus no synchronization. I would swap the injectors between cylinders 1 and 3, clean everything extremely well with brake cleaner and compressed air before doing any work. Then repeat the star machine compression test to see if the readings change to see if it's an injector or mechanical issue. Canman Very impressive that the STAR system can discern a weak cylinder. I wonder if it uses the angular velocity (acceleration) method similar to the virtual crankshaft? The correction factor could be derived by the ECU trying to even out any differences it sees from cylinder to cylinder. I have to get a STAR system or equivalent. I hope this Delphi system gives me a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Kdubya, Your screenshot shows the correction (compression) on cylinder 1 at 0.370 compared to over 1 on the other cylinders. Which explains your problem, low compression on cylinder 1 or a weak injector, thus no synchronization. I would swap the injectors between cylinders 1 and 3, clean everything extremely well with brake cleaner and compressed air before doing any work. Then repeat the star machine compression test to see if the readings change to see if it's an injector or mechanical issue. Canman I thought so!! I posted this before and was told it was within spec. Does it mater that it shows cylinder 2 at -1.4? Does the minus matter? I can def swap the injectors sometime this weekend and give it a try. The injectors were rebuilds and are a year old. So I think it may be the engine itself. Buts theres a chance its the injector. I do have a spare set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smart142 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The star says values of +, -, 2.5 are normal. They suggest that you suggest the highest + injector to the lowest - , and then recheck values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayukawa Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Not sure what is easier ... but since I don't really understand HOW the STAR extrapolates to a compression value, I'd hook up an actual compression meter to cylinder 1 and measure it wet and dry. Plus I don't have a STAR This will give you indication of the raw compression values. If low: it will tell you if it is worn rings or a cracked/leaking head (including valves). If OK: it will tell you that it is the fuel injection Based on this information, you can decide what to do next. That said, swapping the injector would likely tell you if it is the injector on that bad cylinder. Other than the uncertainty around obtaining a decent virtual camshaft signal for the ECU to decide to go ahead and inject fuel. But maybe you can read that off your STAR system. Edited May 8, 2015 by ayukawa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The star says values of +, -, 2.5 are normal. They suggest that you suggest the highest + injector to the lowest - , and then recheck values. So swap injectors from 2&3 and retest. I'll give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolsen Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 There will be differences in angular velocity and angular acceleration between cylinders on their compression stroke. Instantaneous angular velocity is measured by engine speed sensor (CPS) Angular acceleration is computed from changes in angular velocity. High negative angular acceleration means high compression. Nil or positive angular acceleration means nil compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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