VW Cheated on EPA emission tests for their TDI diesels!

[MikeT]

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150918/OEM/150919800/vw-accused-of-using-software-in-482000-diesels-to-skirt-u-s-clean?cciid=email-autonews-blast

I hope they get nailed with the maximum $37,500 fine per vehicle and get sent packing. This is just f'n unreal that a company would cheat in this way.

[Huronlad]

I look forward to seeing how Canada deals with this.

[darren]

Absolutely brutal, and beyond stupid on VW's part.

[darren]

I've been curious for the last few years why Mercedes-Benz diesels , like most others these days, all need urea injection to meet emissions targets, but VW/Audi/Porsche doesn't seem to need it.

I guess now we know why.

[marchanna]

Cheating is the way things are done now. Whoever cheats the best wins. Sad really, but no one likes a level playing field because then they'd have to relay on their own merits.

[MikeT]

They stand to have an $18 billion fine for this. I hope the US EPA nails them for every cent.

[darren]

After they're all recalled to "fix" the software, enthusiasts will just re-map them again for more power (and emissions).

[MikeT]

0.5% of the cars, sure. The damage this will do to VW is going to be interesting to watch.

[tolsen]

Who will want the recall? Can an owner elect not to have certain recalls?

[MikeT]

Not if there is a testing regime in place. The car would become impossible to register. There is already talk of class action lawsuits from US TDI owners in the US states with emission testing, demanding a full cost buyback of their cars. That plus the monstrous fine the EPA may levy could well cause Volkswagen to bail from this continent.

[darren]

"The biggest question is if VW can even fix the issue with a software update or if it will have to replace the NOx trap with urea injectors, which would be insanely expensive."

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/18/vw-air-rule-violation-allegations-stunning-18b-fine-unlikely/

[SmartED]

A software fix is likely not the solution or even available. I'm thinking they are going to be forced to fit in a compliant system similar to what is available on MB and BMW. That will cost a ton of money. Maybe they will buy back the cars, make changes and re sell them. No I don't think people would buy into that - scrap that idea.

Perhaps they can buy them back and sell in different countries that have little or no regulations regarding emissions.

Regardless it is going to be a very big expensive problem and will certainly make a lot of shareholders unhappy.

[marchanna]

It would be interesting to see the performance numbers when they're in "trick mode". I imagine they advance the timing and act like they're in limp mode in order to keep the cylinder temps down and prevent soot.

I would think this is going to be a difficult and expensive fix.

[GoFaster]

Well, the cars passed the EPA tests in some fashion, so it ought to be possible for VW to enable that mode all the time, but the question is what the effect on real world driving is going to be - and what the long-term effect on durability of the emission control components is going to be.

It appears to be technically possible for a (SCR-equipped) "clean diesel" to pass the regulations; a BMW X535d was one of the vehicles checked for real-world emissions and it appeared to be compliant. Yet VW SCR-equipped models are on the list (all 2015, plus 2012 to current Passat) so something's up with VW's implementation.

But what's interesting is that VW was apparently given a chance to fix this "under the radar" and had an emissions-related recall in Dec 2014, but evidently this did not fix the problem to EPA's satisfaction, and here we are.

This has been brewing since May 2014 or possibly earlier. VW knew this was coming. There is a stop-sale on all new and used VW TDI models, 2016 models are being held at port, and VW has pulled all TDI advertising and has pulled it from all of their on-line vehicle configurators. I would interpret that as meaning this is not going to be easy, cheap, or quick to fix.

I was a long-term VW TDI owner, but I opted to take a pass on the "clean diesel" systems on the grounds that they are too complex to be good.

Anyone in the market for a VW today would do about as well to buy the new base 1.4 TSI model or the 1.8 TSI that is now on most of them. They're in the same range of fuel consumption as the diesels anyhow.

[houseofdiesel]

Maybe tdi's will escalate in value in the near term if VW has to stop selling them...it has happened before.

Most (over 90%) of diesels in Europe fail to meet the standards they were built to independent testing of used cars, many were very dirty and all makes were guilty of polluting, the article did not mention why they were failing so badly whether tampered emission systems, poor fuel quality, lack of maintenance or just a manufacturer problem.

VW will not bail, they want to be #1 automaker in the world (and they are as of the first half of this year in sales), will be interesting to see what happens, I doubt much will happen in Canada, I certainly hope not as I have one of these cars and want to keep it!

[dmoonen]

I still have a hard time with the EPA train of thought. . . Let's go after the 50mpg diesels many years after the fact and let the 15mpg American trucks roam wild.

[lebikerboy]

Well, them damn furrin cars ain't merican...

Edited September 21, 2015 by lebikerboy

[smart65]

When I take my 2005 smart fortwo in for the mandatory Ontario emissions certification, there is no exhaust gas analysis done. As long as no warning lights are displayed, and no soot is observed at idle, a certificate is issued. This, to my mind, says that Ontario's DriveClean system just goes through the motions, accomplishing bugger all.

In VW's case, did the tests that were passed by software cheating, involve exhaust gas analysis? If so, are these tests only possible for diesels produced after a certain date?

[MikeT]

Here is what could happen:

• 18 billion dollar fine
• class action lawsuit from owners who want to keep their cars but object to the 15% FE hit when or if the car can be retuned to conform
• class action lawsuit from owners who want to have VW buy back their cars
• dealer unrest
• jail terms for executives in charge of this abject fiasco

There could be no economical way to make a conforming car without going to urea injection and the only alternative is that they buy back the cars plus pay the EPA fine...and then deal with the owner fallout in terms of a couple decades of class action fun.

This has set back the diesel movement in North America by three decades at least, and it may be the diesel swan song. For all manufacturers, not just VW.

I think that even VW's survival is questionable. Certainly "German Engineering" doesn't mean what it did 45 years ago.

[MikeT]

Their stock fell 20% today. The fun and games are beginning....

[Huronlad]

I still have a hard time with the EPA train of thought. . . Let's go after the 50mpg diesels many years after the fact and let the 15mpg American trucks roam wild.

The trucks may burn 4 or 5 times more fuel but the EPA has stated that the tdi in question may be polluting 40 times the legal limit. You do the math on which is worse.

[Huronlad]

I am not sure how the EPA would justify monetary penalties above those that GM or Toyota received from killing owners of their vehicles.

[dmoonen]

On the bright side anyone going to buy stock in the upcoming months I'm waiting until it hits the 80~100 mark. Made a killing last time in 2012 with gm.

Edited September 21, 2015 by dmoonen

[Huronlad]

VW Canada is finally reacting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-emissions-rigging-1.3236548

[darren]

DoJ in the U.S. has launched a criminal investigation into the matter. This will not end well for Volkwagen.