Ignition switch fails to turn starter

[dank1945]

Hi,
First post in this forum, just bought my 06 Pure with 208,000 kms. Turning the ignition switch to start usually takes 3-4 tries before it will turn the starter. The starter has been changed with a new one by PO, so that's not the problem. According to PO it's been doing this for 1 year, but it always starts, eventually. Where is the relay that powers up the starter solenoid?
I'm in the process of buying a service manual off eBay.
Love the car already.

[Wild!]

Did the PO clean the terminals that connect to the starter?

[tolsen]

PO? You mean Royal Mail?

[CANMAN]

Cancel the ebay transaction and get your money back, there is no manual for the smart, the seller is providing a ripped off copy of Mercedes WIS, which is a pain to install in your computer, doesn't run well and doesn't really provide any useful information. You will get better info by searching this forum or going to http://www.fq101.co.uk (free) or http://www.evilution.co.uk (subscription).

The starter relay is inside the SAM (fuse box) it is not access able for maintenance, and probably isn't the cause of your starter issue.

Check the main engine ground at rear of engine in front of rear bumper, guaranteed it badly corroded.

Canman

[Wild!]

[PO] PREVIOUS OWNER

Edited December 7, 2015 by Wild!

[dank1945]

Sorry, I have been away for a few weeks.

I know what you mean with respect to the manual. I did get it and install it successfully. It's not a waste of money, as it helps with locating the various components, and provides very detailed description of each removal procedure, right down to the bolts and nuts. I don't yet see any troubleshooting procedures, but they might be buried in there as well. I got to spend more time digging around. It is a really professional manual.

I'm leaning towards the battery being weak, as sometimes I get a whole concert of relays clicking on and off, including the starter solenoid, trying to turn the engine over, clicking off, then on again, until it finally fires the engine up (maybe). At the same time, a bunch of other relays make noises in the SAM, and probably others in the rear relay box. Speaking of which, I need to open up the floor and find that rear relay box, as there's another starter relay there, which then sends the signal to the starter motor.

I've been thinking it might be possible to cut an opening in the bulkhead wall to allow access to the starter motor, and then fabricate a cover and bolt it on to close up the opening. It would be possible to access and check or replace the starter motor very easily!

I also get a "glow plug circuit A" failure code with my OBD reader, I don't know if that could be related to a low voltage from the battery. When the battery sits for a couple of days, I find it's at 12.2V, even if the GND cable is disconnected, so I know there is no parasitic loads.

Sorry for the rambling, but this really has me baffled.

Cheers,

Dan

[tolsen]

Another member made a mess out of his Smart by cutting an access hole to get to front side of engine.

[CANMAN]

Don't waste your time, there is absolutely no way you can reach the starter thru a hole in the floor.

The only way is to lower the engine, it also helps if you remove the AC compressor and alternator to get more room to work.

You said that the PO replaced the starter, I replaced a starter for a friend who got an aftermarket starter (made in China), it worked fine for a month then became increasingly intermittent until it wouldn't start anymore.

I recommend you replace the starter with a new one from Mercedes.

Contact Bessy or Glenn if you can't do the work yourself.

Canman

[AHZELA]

Indeed a hole in the floor will only let you get a look at the starter. Even with the engine lowered 8" the amount of available room to turn and wiggle the starter enough to get it out is minimal at best. This is likely one of the more pain in the ass jobs I have done on the little smart, but I don't see how an access panel would help. Plus you would have to drop or remove the engine completely to cut said hole, so just deal with the starter that way I guess..

[dank1945]

OK, I lowered the engine with lowering bolts I made myself out of short 60mm bolts and threaded rod. Eventually removed the starter, which did not look 1 year old as the PO had said it was. I believe it was the original to the car. The signal connector (blue wire) did not seem loose, but tight fitting. Anyway, I have bought a new starter, and it is in the car. I replaced the push on connector on the signal wire with a ring terminal, secured with a nut and lock washer, so that is never going to work loose. I checked the resistance from the SAM to the starter and the wire is good. I have also installed a relay on the starter signal wire, to protect the relay in the SAM unit from damage in the future, just in case.

I'm now waiting for my new Intercooler to arrive, in order to finish reassembling the engine. I'm very anxious to try out my new starter, and see if the problem has been fixed, but I'll have to wait.

II've also replaced the fuel filter, and I'm going to replace the transmission oil next.

Cheers,

Dan

[AHZELA]

I can remember cursing that starter trying to turn and wiggle it out of its position.

I remember after all the pain replacing it.. turned the key and nothing... I was devastated! Then I realised it was in R lol.. so happy when it turned over.

[smart142]

It's always sweet when hard work pays off!!!

[dank1945]

OK! It's back together with new Intercooler, glow plugs, transmission oil, engine oil, fuel filter, air filter, starter motor. Installed an external relay for the lights, fuel pump and starter motor. Secured the 12V signal wire to the starter with a ring terminal instead of the push on.

Turn the key, and it fires up first time every time! Sweeeet! No codes, nothing weird, now I have to phone Allstate Insce, get the safety paper and license it!

Thanks everyone, specially Tolsen and Canman for all the help, it has been a learning experience.

Not afraid to drop the engine again anytime it's needed, really easy. Next time I would use smooth 1/2" round stock instead of threaded rod to extend the 3" stock bolts to make the lowering bolts, in order to make lowering and raising the sub frame smoother. With threaded rod it tends to make it notchy as it gets caught on the threads of the rod.

I still need to replace the rear brake shoes, will be done tomorrow.

One important lesson learned: DON'T believe anything the previous owner tells you that has been done to your car. My starter was supposedly 1 year old, and supposedly replacing it had not changed the intermittent not starting problem for the previous owner. LIAR! It had never been replaced (I think it was the original) and IT WAS the cause of the problem.

I would still love to have the lifts Canman has for his car, it would make it really easy and safe to lift the car for routine maintenance. I will probably tackle making my own this summer.

Thanks everyone for the support!

[AHZELA]

Good stuff!

Have you had a look at the rear shoes? They don't take much ware and are supposed to last quite a long time. We still have stock shoes on the smart. They aparently can separate but are able to be glued back together.. I think tolsen told me that one time.

[tolsen]

Glad it is almost back on the road.

Sorting out and rebonding delaminated brake shoes is possible but quite a lot of work.

I did mine to prove it could be done. I had drums off a week ago to inspect and happy to report they are just fine. Only one full year of service after the DIY repair.

[dank1945]

Got new brake shoes at MB for $164 Cad including taxes, will install tomorrow, hopefully.

I need to investigate an airbag light on the instrument panel, constantly on.

The car is running very well, engine is very quiet and peppy, doesn't smoke at all, exhaust smells very nice, starts first try every time.

I have found the ride very, very hard, almost as if there was no suspension at all. Although the roads in this City are in really bad shape, I didn't expect to be thrown around inside the car, the way it is now.

I suspect the front springs are shot, and need to look into the lowest cost for replacements. Any suggestions?

Thanks to all who helped me along this quest.

[smart142]

You will need a star computer to clear the airbag code.

If you're willing to drive to London, i can do that. I also have a pair of German made springs for a reasonable price.

[dank1945]

Thanks smart 142. Unfortunately I'm in St. Catharines, 200 kms away...

I will check the connectors under the seat again more thoroughly, maybe reseating them will clear it. I had the seat out of the car, and maybe didn't reconnect them properly.

I inspected the front springs today, and it looks to me like some parts are missing from the bottom of the springs where they should sit in a cup or something. Am I missing something?

[MikeT]

Oh yeah that suspension is toast.

[dank1945]

Thanks,

I will check tomorrow again!

[CANMAN]

We are straying off topic.

If you need more info start a new thread, but search first, I am sure there is a thread on springs.

You will need to buy another special tool from Mercedes, the clamp block, I think around $85.00.

Here is what you need to know.

http://www.evilution.co.uk/index.php?menu=chassis&mod=528

Canman

Edit, here is a link to discussion on springs.

http://clubsmartcar.com/index.php?showtopic=25769&page=2#

Edited March 27, 2016 by CANMAN

[dank1945]

Thanks Canman,

You are right, i am sorry. If needed i will start a new thread.

In conclusion to the original thread: problem was caused by the combination of two issues, the starter motor was 10 years old, and the battery was at the end of its life.

I also installed 1 ga. Thick grounds at the battery and at the transmission.