DieselAllTheWay

Video of Smart trying to start (but it won't)

91 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, smart142 said:

Fair enough!

I feel the same way removing and installing glow plugs!

I fully agree...none of my injectors are torqued down to these numbers and do not leak. I like you feel that when it feels tight enough and shows no leaks, that's good enough for me.   Repairing the damage from that "well just one more" could be a very very expensive mistake and after spending plenty on rebuilding etc, I'll risk my method first. IF it proves me wrong then I'll try one more tweak of the torque wrench.....AUGH....!

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3 hours ago, smart142 said:

Fair enough!

I feel the same way removing and installing glow plugs!

 

That's next. Already been spraying PB Blaster for the past couple of days. Figured might as well address this seeing how I have 3 good used glow plugs. Where I don't get a warning light pointing to issues with the glow plug it just makes sense to go in there and ensure I have 3 good working ones.

Still unclear on how to clean the threads (reaming you folks call it?) but will do the best I can with baby wipes and alcohol.

 

What a nice transaction huh? Going from the scare of torquing those injectors bolt to near spec to doing glow plugs. This car is a mixed bundle, puts smiles in your face and terrifies the hell out of you in between.

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Copied from Evilution.....enjoy....

 

When Do The Glow Plugs Need Changing?

So far, I haven't seen any official schedule for changing the glow plugs on the smart. It would seem that
smart expect you to change the glow plugs when the error light comes on to tell you that there's a fault.

What normally happens is, when you turn the key to position 1, the glow plug light comes on and a few
seconds later it goes out. The light going out and staying out tells you that the glow plugs are OK. If,
after the engine has been started, the glow plug light comes back on, you have an error. 

The glow plug light should eventually go out again after a while.

lighton.jpg

So, the duration at which you change them is up to you. Personally, I'd recommend you change
them every 4th service instead of waiting for one to fail. The reason is simple. It's not unknown for
glow plugs to work for more than 100,000 miles, however, at that sort of age, you are going to have
a nightmare getting them out. It's far better to change them twice as often and for it to be a 20 minute
job each time rather than having to deal with seized or snapped glow plugs.

OBD Error Codes

As is the case, there are those of you out there who can't survive without your fault code readers.

P0380
P0381
U0106
U0307
U0407

P1481 (smart specific error code)

Glow Plug Removal - Theory

Open the engine cover to reveal your oil burning engine. At the back of the name
plate are 3 cutouts. Directly below these is where the glow plugs are located.

glocation.jpg

The diesel engine in a 451 and 450 are the same but a few things are packaged differently around it. These pictures
were taken of a 451 which has slightly easier access as the rubber conduit can be easily pushed out of the way.

glow2.jpg

Looking down the back of the name plate behind the indents you'll see the glow plug connectors.
This is plug 3, it the furthest left of the 3 plugs.

glow3.jpg

Here is plug 2 in the centre.

glow4.jpg

And finally, this is plug 1. They are labeled from right to left like the cylinders.

glow5.jpg

The connectors on the top pull off. They can be quite stiff but hooking something behind them helps.
Some glow plugs have a threaded connector, however, the smart's glow plug connections are smooth.
Below is a brand new glow plug. Generally they are less than £10 each.

newplug.jpg

With the electrical connection removed you should see the hexagon head. You'll need a long 10mm socket.

socket.jpg

Use a ratchet with an extention and the long 10 mm socket, remove all 3 glow plugs and refit
3 new glow plugs with a dry thread using no more than 15Nm of torque to tighten them up.

Glow Plug Removal - Real Life

This is one of the most hit or miss jobs you can do. If it goes OK, it's a 20 minute job. If it goes badly then you are
in all kinds of trouble. The trouble comes in the form of the small thread and the fragile nature of the glow plugs.
If you snap a glow plug as you remove it, you are going to experience a world of pain. It really does require
the removal of the engine and remachining the head to remove the broken plug and rethread the hole.

With these stakes, it makes sense to prepare and try everything you possibly can to help them come out ok.

The main step is penetrating fluid such as:

PlusGas (UK)
GT85 (UK)
TryThis (UK)
Penetrene (AUS)
RP7 (AUS)
Liquid Wrench (US)
Kano Kroil (US)
PB Blaster PB16 (US)

Or you can make your own penetrating fluid from acetone and ATF (50:50).

Spray on your penetrating fluid of choice several times over a few days before you attempt removal.
You want to allow the fluid to penetrate as much as possible so apply some before you drive the car.

Driving the car heats up the engine and I'm sure most of you know, metal expands when it's hot.
The movement of the expansion allows the penetrating fluid to get further into the thread.

Just before you attempt to remove the glow plugs, go for a drive so the engine is hot.
Again, this expands the hole a tiny amount but it could be the difference between success and failure.

Set your torque wrench to 15Nm and tighten the glow plug, yes tighten. It's an old trick.
Now take a T handle with an extension and the long 10mm socket. You don't want to try and wind the plug straight out. You need to ease it out as if you were threading a hole with a tap. Go a quarter turn anticlockwise and an eighth turn back. Very much like 2 steps forward and 1 step back. You are doing this to allow the thread to clear. If you don't, the corrosion can clog the threads, create too much friction and cause the plug to seize or snap.

Fitting New Glow Plugs

On the box that your glow plugs came in, it will have the torque values.
You must NOT exceed this value. The tightening torque of a glow plug with a dry thread is 15Nm.
You can expect the plug to snap or the thread to fail at around 35Nm.

The initial response is to consider using copper grease on the threads to reduce the chances of
seizing next time. If you do this, it is very important to know that greasing the thread will reduce
the amount of torque required to set it OR SNAP IT. If you wet torque a glow plug with 15Nm of
torque, this will be very close to the 35Nm failure value of a dry plug.

If you really want to use copper grease on the thread, consider setting them at 8Nm and check tighten in 300 miles.

Does The Glow Plug Light Mean The Plugs Are Faulty?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. All the plugs are controlled by a glow plug controller (sometimes called a glow
plug relay, although it's more complicated than that). These controllers do fail but it is also worth checking
Fuse 9 on the 451 SAM unit (fuses will vary on other models). The controllers are failing more often now.

Luckily, it's usually a fairly easy fix that doesn't involve buying a replacement controller. Click here.

Change The Faulty Plug Or All 3?

In an ideal world, you want to save time and money just by replacing the 1 faulty plug.
In this instance it's not a great idea. You may as well change all 3 as you are there.
Glow plugs are usually quite well matched so when 1 fails, the others won't be far behind it.

Glow Plug Part Numbers

450 & 451 (45bhp only)

Denso DG-184 (Tolsen)
Beru GN015 (Tolsen)
NGK Y543J (Tolsen)
Champion CH228
Delphi HDS387 
smart A 660 159 02 01

451 (54bhp only)

smart A 660 159 04 01 (Rhoda)
NGK CZ108 (Gerard)
NGK CZ158 (Gerard)

Testing Glow Plugs

Take a look here.
 

 

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Once you have them out, measure the hole dia. and use a drill bit one size smaller than the body of the glow plug whatever that is. To clean out the carbon build up around portion of glow plug that heats up. Fill the flutes of the drill bit with grease so the grease helps catch the dirt and debris as it carefully cleans out the hole.  BEWARE not to damage the threads or make the hole off shaped or crooked.  Test the glow plug for .9 as shown in another thread, simple volt meter will do.

 

The hardest part is the first crack of the glow plug as it releases from the head...!  Once loose it may take time to slowly remove just simply turn back and forth until it is out so you do not strip out the threads or snapping plug trying to force it out too fast.

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Oh so that's what reaming means. Makes sense seeing how the carbon is so hard to remove. Thanks for the copy/paste on how to properly do the plugs, I had seen this before and felt that I'm well prepared for the task.

 

Unfortunately the weather is turning. Today is the last nice day before the snow and cold temps hit. Will postpone doing the plugs as I won't be given much of a leeway in case I run into issues. Hope that having added penetrating oil to the top of the plugs won't be a problem if I just leave it. For how long who knows, it may not warm up again for months.

 

Just tried starting the car, now 5C. No go, which isn't surprising. Will try again this afternoon then will take it on a diesel burning mission. Still halfway full.

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OK, this is what started my injector rabbit hole to fix and clean my injectors.

There are many similar to this.....enjoy.

 

 

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21 hours ago, DieselAllTheWay said:

Oh so that's what reaming means. Makes sense seeing how the carbon is so hard to remove. Thanks for the copy/paste on how to properly do the plugs, I had seen this before and felt that I'm well prepared for the task.

 

Unfortunately the weather is turning. Today is the last nice day before the snow and cold temps hit. Will postpone doing the plugs as I won't be given much of a leeway in case I run into issues. Hope that having added penetrating oil to the top of the plugs won't be a problem if I just leave it. For how long who knows, it may not warm up again for months.

 

Just tried starting the car, now 5C. No go, which isn't surprising. Will try again this afternoon then will take it on a diesel burning mission. Still halfway full.

i'm surprised it won't start at +5c.  my glow plugs are toast, but the car will still start even at zero  (its takes a few seconds to idle smoothly,  but it starts)

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11 hours ago, Sydney said:

i'm surprised it won't start at +5c.  my glow plugs are toast, but the car will still start even at zero  (its takes a few seconds to idle smoothly,  but it starts)

 

Hey Willys thanks for the video. I am definitely doing this test when things warm up a bit. Got plenty of clear lines and the test is simple enough, yet tells you plenty.

Sydney the fact that it won't start a 5C or 25C has me concerned that the issue could be low compression. After having tried so many of the tips you guys shared and exhausting a bunch of them, I'm now getting concerned. The white diesel Rabbit in the first page had the exact same issue: hard to start even on hot days. Turns out it had low compression on one of the cyl and the remedy was to put on a replacement engine from a donor car, in this case a 1.9L from a 93 Golf. Now you know why I keep the car ;)

 

However before jumping to conclusions I want to run the injector return test lines, that's now my next project. The fact that the car is dropping fuel pressure the moment the engine is shut off points to fuel issues. My friend cannot tell whether Smarts are supposed to do that but he knows from personal experience that VWs, Audi and BMW diesels retain fuel pressure upon motor shut off. He asked his foreman at the Audi dealership where he works his thoughts on the Smart but he doesn't know if the fuel pressure drop is normal for Smarts. Maybe someone here knows the answer to that? No point in chasing the rabbit down that hole if there's nothing to be found. Any chance someone in this forum I could ask? Would be nice to eliminate this as a possible issue.

 

 

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I'm going to say it holds it's pressure after shut off, as a guess....and the fuel return lines allow drainage as the pressure drops on it's own maybe?  Just a uneducated thought. Simply because if you crack the lines after the engine has run you get pressure from the lines. It blows off not dribbles when you crack the line if you open it too fast so to speak.  So, maybe your high pressure pump isn't getting great start up pressure because of the slower rpms while starting but can keep it during regular rpms while driving speeds etc..?  The rebuild kit is cheap so to speak off Amazon or Ebay, I'll check.....so doing the rebuild on a second pump then swapping it in fresh may also solve your issue? My way of thinking is to rebuild a spare pump so as not to upset a running pump if things do go bad or you find something bad with pump that is acting up. You did get a spare pump correct, so it's your choice, rebuild it first then start the swap over process or risk it and do the swap with old pump and see if it works . Then rebuild original pump only to swap it again to get a fresh rebuilt pump that should last years? No more worrying about pump issues?   Hmmm..? How cold is it there and how many times do you want to work on it over the winter months?  I'd rebuild the pump now, then swap it once not twice?  Like I said the rebuild kit is cheap and it's easy to do, no soaking just spraying with carb cleaner and air pressure blow out, then new seals etc etc.    BUT, do check the valve springs I mentioned before on a thread of mine. I found two with stuck springs which would effectively not allow the pump to build pressure I think.  I found replacements at a good price also. Posted on the other thread .  And while you are in there and after the high pressure pump think about EGR as they are basically connected they are so close to each other and the bolts are so hard to get at with EGR installed.  Just a suggestion is all.  You can do the by pass for the EGR and still wire in the EGR and plug it in to the wiring harness and have it not in the system but there just to fool the electronics.  A semi free EGR delete......you will need the block off plate and the new pipe to replace the EGR and you can remove all the heater hosing going to the exhaust manifold where it is cooling the EGR or heating the EGR manifold intake tube where the block off plate will locate.  Removing 6 feet of hosing will free up plenty of room in the engine bay.   Just a thought if you are to plan on working under a tarp with heaters blowing trying to keep you from freezing....lol.   Yep been there done that, too many times to remember.

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is the seal kit for our pump, you won't use a few parts but it looks correct.

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/For-Bosch-Common-Rail-Diesel-Fuel-Pump-High-Pressure-Repair-Kit-Seal-CP1-Peugeot/223113411094?hash=item33f2987a16:g:N0YAAOSwTfFbNLhY

 

 

Edited by Willys

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Yes, great idea. And since you talked me into nabbing that spare high pressure pump it makes things that much easier. And it does sound like this could be a possible cause. Super easy to rebuild and cheap. I call this a no brainer.

 

The only thing getting in the way is the unknown with regards to the compression status. I emailed my friend to see if he can do a compression test first. Seems like a logical next step given the impact low compression would have on things. I mean, if replacing the high pressure pump was an easy task I'd try that first. Unfortunately not having a garage greatly limits what I can do outdoors this time of the year. 

 

Two things stand in the way: the damn EGR and the weather. The EGR has to go, that's for sure. Would be a good time to remove it prior to swapping the high pressure pump. You know, kill two birds... But the biggest hurdle now is the weather. High of -17 in a few days. 

This project may have to sit for a while.

 

But at least now the plan is clear, going forward:

- Compression test (assuming my friend can do it or I find a garage that will do it without costing me an arm)

- Do the fuel return line test from the injectors.

- Replace high pressure pump, while deleting the EGR at the same time.

- If none of the above corrects the issue, then on to checking the timing. Last resort, given the engine has to be dropped, engine opened.

 

I feel that the path forward isn't too bad. And I've been learning tons as I go along. The sucky part is having to wait several months till spring till things warm up. 

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can you try uncle Glenn's compression test method.    (it worked for me)  and its free (except for new injector washers)

remove lines to injectors,  remove injector retaining hardware and turn the engine by hand.  if there is good compression the injectors will push up.

just be careful,  because they can pop right out. 

its simple and it works

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Ohhh wish I knew about uncle Glenn last week when I had the injectors out prior to torquing them. Would have been the ideal time for this. It was scary torquing those bolts to spec, would be even scarier doing it a second time. Yes, I have spare injector rings but may have to get new bolts as recommended? These were around $7 a piece and took a week to arrive. But worth it if it'd give me a definite answer. Will have to search it out. Still less scary than removing the glow plugs for the other method.

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On 11/28/2020 at 7:08 PM, DieselAllTheWay said:

Another update:

Started tracking down some of the wiring and found this beauty in the pic below. This is the white connector sitting just behind the battery. As you can tell this car has had a lot of moisture pestering its interior. Took a good amount of elbow grease just to clean up the battery bay. 

As seen in the pic one of the pics corroded and broke into the other connector, getting stuck in the groove, clearly not making contact. Good thing I removed a pristine one from the parts car, so I went ahead and replaced the connectors. While there also replaced the neg batt cable with a longer one, also ensuring the contact was nicely sanded. Replaced the silver box too, with the parts car that also looked perfect. 

 

Had my fingers crossed that this would make it easier to start the car. Was mistaken. It took starter fluid and nearly draining out the batt in order to have it finally fire up. On the plus side the fuel filter light is no longer on, so I wonder if the white connector relates to this filter. 

 

Drove around endlessly in an effort to use up the fuel in the tank, just in the event it turned bad due it having sat for years and is accounting for the hard start. But run out of time. Car is way too economical. But while driving I did notice smoke when there was a car behind me, shining his headlights towards me, as I took off from a red light. This smoke isn't visible with the naked eye without lights to help. Car also hesitates a bit while revving it up. It is starting to point to a timing issue. I sure hope I'm wrong on that but can't think of too many other causes for my issues.

broken-contact-white-connector.jpg

 

New owner of a 2006 Smart 450 CDI. I am working a no start and SAM issue. I got in touch with a forum member and currently waiting for a C3 MUX and am going to male a SMART computer. Had the SAM, ECU, dash all 'fixed' by SOS in the US and the keys don't seem to work. I done a lot of work checking wires. Before I got the car the radio was hacked out. Wires cut. I don't see this radio was on the CAN. I did find a white plug behind the battery. Bo mating connector like this. I have looked for wire diagrams for the car with no luck. Can you tell me what this is. what is dose where it goes. Mine might be missing or cut. Thank you. 

White plug behind battery.jpg

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I asked the same question a month ago and was given the answer, it is for the power steering option that some cars have.   So, as long as your car doesn't hve power steering you'll never find the other side of this plug.

Just a note, you need to clean all battery terminal connections or you'll never get the correct readings etc....ignore if you already have done this.

Also that silver block with the many miles of wires running into it is where it will be filled wih corrosion if anything like a Canadian car which this is, correct.  Take it apart and wash it using a toothbrush and vinegar or cleaner, then recoat using clear nail polish and re-install somewhere off the dash cross member by moving wiring harness to get enough reach for box. This is the best location from water drips. I'll bet your windshield is leaking, usually along lower edge.

The radio will not upset your car from running as it can be replaced easily by not using the stock wiring to power it .....use a separate switched fuse off the side of the SAM unit.  The biggest issue with the radio is not having the code number for it to be -re-turned on. Far easier to replace with a modern radio with blue-tooth etc etc.

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18 hours ago, Willys said:

I asked the same question a month ago and was given the answer, it is for the power steering option that some cars have.   So, as long as your car doesn't hve power steering you'll never find the other side of this plug.

Just a note, you need to clean all battery terminal connections or you'll never get the correct readings etc....ignore if you already have done this.

Also that silver block with the many miles of wires running into it is where it will be filled wih corrosion if anything like a Canadian car which this is, correct.  Take it apart and wash it using a toothbrush and vinegar or cleaner, then recoat using clear nail polish and re-install somewhere off the dash cross member by moving wiring harness to get enough reach for box. This is the best location from water drips. I'll bet your windshield is leaking, usually along lower edge.

The radio will not upset your car from running as it can be replaced easily by not using the stock wiring to power it .....use a separate switched fuse off the side of the SAM unit.  The biggest issue with the radio is not having the code number for it to be -re-turned on. Far easier to replace with a modern radio with blue-tooth etc etc.

 

Thanks! As long as it don't have anything to do with the SAM (my issue right now). I did pull all the plugs out of that connector and sprayed them down with cleaner. I did clean up those terminals. I was loosing a volt between the positive battery terminal and any ground in the area (and at the SAM positive in). I ran a  battery jumper from the battery negative terminal back to the engine and got my volt back everywhere. I need to find the rear ground bolt and clean up the motor to body braid. 

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I used new welding cable by the foot at what you call Harbor Freight (Princess Auto up here)  Far better than braided wire from the factory...imho.  You can attach ground to any solid metal bolt off the engine transmission to a solid ground on the body. I went one step further and added a sub frame ground to the same engine ground just to get silly...lol. Made sense at the time...lol. Still does.   Be careful not to over juice the system with a battery charger, you may spike something important.

 

I get a nice fuzzy feeling about a refreshed vehicle when you see everything new or cleaned up and made like new.   Knowledge that it may not let you down after doing all that work.  Fingers crossed.   IMHO  better than a new one.  All known bugs worked out.

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