Sydney

noise in engine

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So the starter came for the 2008 i picked up during the summer for $250.00. I installed the starter and the car fired up first click. But there is a horrible racket coming from the engine at idle. If I give it a bit of fuel, the noise goes away and she idles perfectly. Any thoughts? I am more into the 450's so I didn't really plan on keeping this anyway.  

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more info needed

 

wild guesses for me would be a loose flywheel..timing chain slap...or maybe a motor mount

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37 minutes ago, LooseLugNuts said:

more info needed

 

wild guesses for me would be a loose flywheel..timing chain slap...or maybe a motor mount

It's hard to explain the noise, but it's bad.  

I shut it off right away,   but then started trying different things to find the source. It's way to loud to be an exhaust shield. I am pretty sure it's not an engine mount. It is always there untill I increase the engine revolutions then it smooths out and completely goes away. It doesn't matter if the car is in park, drive or reverse. Once I take my foot off the fuel and it idles back down, the rattle/knock returns.

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Check the muffler bracket where it gets close to the X bar or anything near it. It was what I went insane searching for when I had a what I also thought was an engine noise last winter or maybe 2 winters ago.  The only reason I found it was I accidentally looked past the wheel at a specific angle and saw it plain as day!   My noise rattled the head liner! 
Just a suggestion....can you take a video of it happening and posting it up? 

 

Have you pried up against all engine mounts?

Do you have a piece of rubber hosing so you can pinpoint the noise using it like a stethoscope? OR have a stethoscope?  IR is that a piece of doweling not a hose, hose for air leaks, doh!

Edited by Willys

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1 hour ago, Sydney said:

IMG_20210131_164735_edit.jpg

Yes. $250.00 with the paperwork. It needed a starter, so I ordered one from rockauto. Initial inspection, it needs a left front spring and a right rear spring. Also tire pressure light is on, ABS light is on and the usual yellow triangle. I just have to figure out the engine noise before I go any further. It has 167k on it. (not sure if that is ok or bad for a gasser)

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Gasser......equals compression testing ....imho.   Also a leak down test .....that should tell you loads about engine condition.    Hmmmm....?

 

 

IMHO....the newer versions really should have kept the 3 rear light assembly....they just don't look right with 2 lights.....Hmmmm...?

Looks clean though all the same.

 

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hose in the ear as mentioned by willys is my favourite way to isolate a noise..i keep a section of that clear stuff with braided reinforcement just for that

 

first check would be internal (stick the hose in your best ear and send the other end into the timing cover area via the oil filler cap)...if it passes that one leave it running and move on to all external possibilities

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i'm going to do a bit more digging tonight.  start with the easy things first. 

exhaust rattle

engine mounts

my wife is a nurse,  she might have a spare cheap stethoscope i can use.    

 

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I should have married a nurse also, would have helped with all the emerg, visits.....lol.  Back in the day when I was indestructable, or so I thought.  lol

Princess Auto sells those stethoscopes for mechanics, they have many attachments for them as a kit. handy items to have.  I bet the real thing will be LOUD....resting on the valve cover...lol.

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Well the winner of "find my horrible noise" is looselugnuts. It's the flywheel ring gear hitting the starter. But only when its idling.   When the engine speed increases the centrifugal force must center the flywheel and it stops hitting.

Now I just have to figure out is the flywheel loose or are the main bearings shot. Or is the clutch shot, 

IMG_20210201_205106.jpg

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now that i had a good sleep and have a clear head,  the more i look at this picture, the more i am thinking that it can't be the ring gear hitting the starter..

would the teeth on the ring gear be that off center from the starter drive?   i know the starter drive is in the released position in this pic.

Edited by Sydney

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Butcher fix....have you thought about relieving the area where the starter is being contacted and seeing if it still happens?  How are the locations where the starter locates or bolts on? Could it be that someone installed a starter and didn't install it correctly in place so to speak?  Does the starter operate as it should and not get hung up in any way?  Can you take pic of ring gear's location on flywheel? Does it look undisturbed? Then can you set a pointer in place to watch the rotation of the ring gear as it rotates to see if it has come loose in one spot or not?  Hmmmm....?  Is the sub frame still in the car? Far easier to deal with it out I'd say.

Is the flywheel actually loose, checked bolts yet?  IF not then checking rotation of ring gear is next?   OR is it grinder time...lol.

Edited by Willys

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i am going to remove a bit of material from the starter and see what happens.  the starter mounts perfect,  nothing in the way or causing it to not mount flush with the mounting location.  starter operates fine.

flywheel does not seem to be loose.  i put a white chalk mark on the flywheel and rolled the engine by a couple of rotations to see if i can see anything flopping around,  but no luck.

i will roll it again tonight with a guage on the ring gear and see how it looks.

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Starter doesn't look all that old or was it well protected?   Could be just a bad housing. They installed it and said too much work and quit?

 

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6 minutes ago, Willys said:

Starter doesn't look all that old or was it well protected?   Could be just a bad housing. They installed it and said too much work and quit?

 

starter is brand new.  i just installed it.   (i bought the car as a non runner). the old starter was shot.  

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2 minutes ago, Sydney said:

starter is brand new.  i just installed it.   (i bought the car as a non runner). the old starter was shot.  

Starter doesn't look all that old or was it well protected?   Could be just a bad housing. They installed it and said too much work and quit?

 

So you haven't said too much work and stopped then I see.....lol.   ooooops....lol.   Just re-read the first sentence of the thread.....lol...lol

 

 

Edited by Willys

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so i guess the question i have to ask myself is...  unload the car for $500.00 as is  (and get my money back) or drop the trans and see whats loose in there.

i already have 5 450's in various states or repair.   do i want a 451 project also  ???   lol.

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if it was me id make double sure the flywheel wasnt loose or cracked 

 

and then id shave a bit of aluminum off the nose of that starter 

 

then id test it out and send her down the road to the next owner for a fair price

 

id also make sure its the correct starter...if its a rebuild one they could have made a mistake 

Edited by LooseLugNuts
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1 minute ago, LooseLugNuts said:

if it was me id make double sure the flywheel wasnt loose or cracked 

 

and then id shave a bit of aluminum off the nose of that starter 

 

then id test it out and send her down the road to the next owner for a fair price

Dito.....

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35 minutes ago, LooseLugNuts said:

if it was me id make double sure the flywheel wasnt loose or cracked 

 

and then id shave a bit of aluminum off the nose of that starter 

 

then id test it out and send her down the road to the next owner for a fair price

 

id also make sure its the correct starter...if its a rebuild one they could have made a mistake 

is there any easy way to check the flywheel for damage?  i can see in the starter hole with flashlight and everything looks good (no damage to the ring gear, or visible damage to the flywheel)

it is the correct starter.  it matches dimensions exactly with the old one.

if i have to drop the trans,  then i am sort of committed to seeing the job thru to the end.      (mabey i should be committed for owning smarts)  lol

if i have to watch my budget on this one.  i'm into it for 500 now,  and would be looking at 2 new springs, 4 wheel brake job, and possibly a new clutch and flywheel (if im lucky),  just to get a gasser back on the road.  lol 

Edited by Sydney

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Personally I would grind down the starter fit it and see what happens, if it starts fine and runs...job done.....IF it still makes the noise and runs, then it's up to you to either sell for a slight profit (for your time invested) or go full tilt and sell as a safetied runner so to speak for far more.   I'd go the first route personally and concentrate on the 450's.....but that's just me.

You should be able to make a good profit if it doesn't make the noise and sell as is also...imho.

IMHO, any running car is worth $1500    if it sounds good and doesn't blow smoke.   OR has something special about it you desperately want from it.  

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the only way i can think of checking flywheel without removing trans is to use prybars and look for odds amount of play...you should only feel crank thrust...which can be compared at both ends if you have a dial indicator and solid base

 

 

does the old starter have marks showing it was rubbing?...if it doesnt then something is different....either the nose casting or the mounting holes

 

maybe check tooth contact and if its excessively close you can modify the mounting holes to "redneck" shim out the assembly along with a slight removal of material where its rubbing

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and i would get in there with a mirror and flashlight while slowly turning the engine over to see what part of the flywheel is touching the starter

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