Sydney

engine lowering bolts

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can someone give me the length of the factory engine lowering bolts for the 450/451's.

i am going to make a set.

thanks.

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Threads are fine metric M12x1.5. 

Lengths are 300mm and 260mm. 

Threaded length is about 50mm. 

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I have found when lowering the complete engine cradle assembly that the length of the pins (bolts) can be as long as fitable. What I mean by this is that when I'm lowering the motor to remove or replace the alternator, starter or thermostat etc. the height of the vehicle jacked up and the space you require to slide under it depends on the ratio between the jack lift and body height. Let me explain it this way. If I'm able to lift the rear end up say 30 inches and my jack has the same lift height, when I drop the motor as needed, the pins are only there for alignment not to support the cradle assembly therefore it does not require it to be a bolt, only a guiding rods, since the floor jack is determining the lowered height. And at this point my floor jack is at its lowest point resting at ground level. No worries of it lowering any further. Then the repairs or replacement has been done, up goes the jack to the securing position of the cradle. That's how I do it. I made my pins by purchasing M12 x 1.5 bolts, cut off the heads and welded 3/8" x 14" rods to the  now newly named,stud pins.

Edited by BillyB
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This the exact way I made my bolts, I couldn'd find threaded rod of the correct threat pitch etc. Simple to cut and lengthen the bolts.

 

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Are these bolts needed when dropping the engine and gearbox but leaving brakes, suspension etc on the car? I have 2x 1m M12 threaded rod here ready..

IMG_20210614_084232.jpg

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The easiest way to get your hands and wrenches in and around the engine compartment is to lower the sub frame imho. You can argue if it's best to simply remove sub frame completely or not to get engine and transmission out. I will say after working on my two cars it is highly recommended to drop the sub frame. I'm a larger framed guy with large hands etc, so getting my hands etc to where it's needed is difficult to say the least!  There is a few simply things required to drop the entire sub frame either down to the limits of the cabling or hoses or to drop it completely. Once you have done it a few times it is the only way. Far quicker imho.  No blood loss either....lol.  My trick is to lift the car not lower the sub frame. I use two scissor jacks to carefully lift the body up after securely blocking the front wheels.   But from the looks of your picture here you are well versed in mechanical fixes. Is this a mobile repair van? Trailer-truck repairs etc?

Take my word for it, drop the sub frame or at least look to see what that entails...good luck.

 

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2 hours ago, Willys said:

The easiest way to get your hands and wrenches in and around the engine compartment is to lower the sub frame imho. You can argue if it's best to simply remove sub frame completely or not to get engine and transmission out. I will say after working on my two cars it is highly recommended to drop the sub frame. I'm a larger framed guy with large hands etc, so getting my hands etc to where it's needed is difficult to say the least!  There is a few simply things required to drop the entire sub frame either down to the limits of the cabling or hoses or to drop it completely. Once you have done it a few times it is the only way. Far quicker imho.  No blood loss either....lol.  My trick is to lift the car not lower the sub frame. I use two scissor jacks to carefully lift the body up after securely blocking the front wheels.   But from the looks of your picture here you are well versed in mechanical fixes. Is this a mobile repair van? Trailer-truck repairs etc?

Take my word for it, drop the sub frame or at least look to see what that entails...good luck.

 

Hi.. I am a fork lift truck engineer so am used to rolling around on the floor and working in tight spaces.. I don't really want to drop the whole lot as I have heard the brakes can be a nightmare to bleed with the abs? Fitting a Roadster engine..

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Hmmmm.....as long as you do not drain the entire system you should be ok, imho. You just need to cap off the junction at the sub frame location and then bleed like any normal car etc....but that is just my theory. I made the bad mistake of allowing the whole system to drain when i first took my sub frame out. IF you cap it off then make sure the master never gets air trapped or locked which ever it is, imho you should be able to reattach the sub frame and simply keep adding fluids to brake system even if you do it by gravity feed.....?  The issue comes when you accidentally allow the master to loose it's fluid past the plunger.  Then you'll need a scanner capable of bleeding ABS brakes. In Canada that'll cost you $200 ish or more depending upon the scanner you choose. 
Fitting a roaster engine...Hmmm....what HP increase? Are you transferring the computers etc etc as well...?  If you aren't you'll need a STAR system I bet to get the computers to talk to each other and accept the new configuration. That is IF there is any difference in the electronics of the whole swap.  Maybe I'm wrong about the computers but over here with the CDI's you can't easily swap things around like the old days, too much electronics...augh...good luck and post up pics when it's done....I'd love to see the finished project.....thanks.

 

P.S.   you can drop the sub frame about 10" or so with the brakes hooked up which will allow far more room to get hands in etc.   Then simply re attach sub frame if you have to to get engine out etc.

Edited by Willys

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40 minutes ago, Willys said:

Hmmmm.....as long as you do not drain the entire system you should be ok, imho. You just need to cap off the junction at the sub frame location and then bleed like any normal car etc....but that is just my theory. I made the bad mistake of allowing the whole system to drain when i first took my sub frame out. IF you cap it off then make sure the master never gets air trapped or locked which ever it is, imho you should be able to reattach the sub frame and simply keep adding fluids to brake system even if you do it by gravity feed.....?  The issue comes when you accidentally allow the master to loose it's fluid past the plunger.  Then you'll need a scanner capable of bleeding ABS brakes. In Canada that'll cost you $200 ish or more depending upon the scanner you choose. 
Fitting a roaster engine...Hmmm....what HP increase? Are you transferring the computers etc etc as well...?  If you aren't you'll need a STAR system I bet to get the computers to talk to each other and accept the new configuration. That is IF there is any difference in the electronics of the whole swap.  Maybe I'm wrong about the computers but over here with the CDI's you can't easily swap things around like the old days, too much electronics...augh...good luck and post up pics when it's done....I'd love to see the finished project.....thanks.

 

P.S.   you can drop the sub frame about 10" or so with the brakes hooked up which will allow far more room to get hands in etc.   Then simply re attach sub frame if you have to to get engine out etc.

40 minutes ago, Willys said:

Hmmmm.....as long as you do not drain the entire system you should be ok, imho. You just need to cap off the junction at the sub frame location and then bleed like any normal car etc....but that is just my theory. I made the bad mistake of allowing the whole system to drain when i first took my sub frame out. IF you cap it off then make sure the master never gets air trapped or locked which ever it is, imho you should be able to reattach the sub frame and simply keep adding fluids to brake system even if you do it by gravity feed.....?  The issue comes when you accidentally allow the master to loose it's fluid past the plunger.  Then you'll need a scanner capable of bleeding ABS brakes. In Canada that'll cost you $200 ish or more depending upon the scanner you choose. 
Fitting a roaster engine...Hmmm....what HP increase? Are you transferring the computers etc etc as well...?  If you aren't you'll need a STAR system I bet to get the computers to talk to each other and accept the new configuration. That is IF there is any difference in the electronics of the whole swap.  Maybe I'm wrong about the computers but over here with the CDI's you can't easily swap things around like the old days, too much electronics...augh...good luck and post up pics when it's done....I'd love to see the finished project.....thanks.

 

P.S.   you can drop the sub frame about 10" or so with the brakes hooked up which will allow far more room to get hands in etc.   Then simply re attach sub frame if you have to to get engine out etc.

I will be running it from my existing ecu so the power will be the same until it gets a remap.. to around 81bhp or possibly higher.. the roadster engine has stronger internals apparently, an oil cooler as standard and also a larger turbo exhaust. Apart from these it's the same engine that's coming out.

IMG_20210514_174611.jpg

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Oil cooler......do you have a pic of this....?   Damn...now you have my interest up.....the old modder in me has perked up it's ears....lol.

 

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11 minutes ago, Willys said:

Oil cooler......do you have a pic of this....?   Damn...now you have my interest up.....the old modder in me has perked up it's ears....lol.

 

Yeah sure.. is it not the same as the one on the cdi?

IMG_20210614_182259.jpg

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when mine came out i took the whole rolling rear end as one piece

 

ive never used lowering bolts...i just raised the car then removed the tires and used an atv jack to lower the rear and drag it out the back...then lifted the atv jack and put the tires back on...

 

then did everything i needed to do with easy access 

 

went back in the opposite of course

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4 minutes ago, asl3312 said:

Yeah sure.. is it not the same as the one on the cdi?

IMG_20210614_182259.jpg

Yes...this looks like the same one as my CDI's have.  Hmmm.....such a  dis-appointment...lol.

 

You could buy a screw on larger filter if there is enough space like we do....lol.

I was hoping they had figured out some sort of remote cooler for this set up.  Oh well.

 

Edited by Willys

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3 minutes ago, Willys said:

Yes...this looks like the same one as my CDI's have.  Hmmm.....such a  dis-appointment...lol.

 

You could buy a screw on larger filter if there is enough space like we do....lol.

I was hoping they had figured out some sort of remote cooler for this set up.  Oh well.

 

I have a screw on adaptor and filter on the engine that's currently in the car.. when I swap engines I'll switch the adaptor over too. There's a company over here that supply a front mounted oil cooler kit.. http://www.bigperformance.co.uk/shop_detail.asp?CatID=29&ProdID=115 

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Does your car use a drain plug or do you have to suck the oil out each oil change?  Over here in Canada it's uncommon to suck your oil as nearly all use drain plugs still.

That site has some stuff .....glad it's not for a CDI....lol.     

I'm curious what a larger intercooler would do....I'm not up on turbo engines, I'm a dinasaus when it comes to modding cars and engines.....pre computer days...lol.

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36 minutes ago, Willys said:

Does your car use a drain plug or do you have to suck the oil out each oil change?  Over here in Canada it's uncommon to suck your oil as nearly all use drain plugs still.

That site has some stuff .....glad it's not for a CDI....lol.     

I'm curious what a larger intercooler would do....I'm not up on turbo engines, I'm a dinasaus when it comes to modding cars and engines.....pre computer days...lol.

 No sump plug, so you have to extract via dipstick tube.. the pump I use is in the photo of inside my van.. 6.5L capacity.. the replacement engine I have has had the sump off (presumably when the timing chain was done) and has a sump plug welded in.

I am guessing a larger intercooler would cool the intake air down more than a smaller one, like a bigger radiator is more effective than a small unit at cooling the water.

Edited by asl3312
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Yes i agree with the theory of the cooler but what gains would it produce..?

Yes I saw your oil sucker.....in your van.   Can't beat a drain plug imho....not sure what the benefits are over a sucker of visa versa but I'm used to the plug type over the sucker type. All I know is imho you may get more dirty fluids out using a drain plug version due to larger hole size which equals faster flow washing out any particles etc and also possibly more liquids.  Not to mention I seemed to get covered in oil using the sucker hose etc.....plus the CDI oils are far more filthy and harder to get off your hands.   Just what you are used to I guess.

 

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29 minutes ago, Willys said:

Yes i agree with the theory of the cooler but what gains would it produce..?

Yes I saw your oil sucker.....in your van.   Can't beat a drain plug imho....not sure what the benefits are over a sucker of visa versa but I'm used to the plug type over the sucker type. All I know is imho you may get more dirty fluids out using a drain plug version due to larger hole size which equals faster flow washing out any particles etc and also possibly more liquids.  Not to mention I seemed to get covered in oil using the sucker hose etc.....plus the CDI oils are far more filthy and harder to get off your hands.   Just what you are used to I guess.

 

Guessing that the cooler air is more dense so more air is entering the engine.. more air more fuel more power!!

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I remember we had a discussion a long time back about poor heat in our cars in the winter. I showed that blocking off the intercooler made quite a difference. Cooling of the intake air can be taken too far and lead to loooong warm up times and poor combustion. Diesels run best with IAT of 20-40 C

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11 hours ago, Smart42 said:

I remember we had a discussion a long time back about poor heat in our cars in the winter. I showed that blocking off the intercooler made quite a difference. Cooling of the intake air can be taken too far and lead to loooong warm up times and poor combustion. Diesels run best with IAT of 20-40 C

I watch for the 3 blobs at all times, and when the temps start to drop I block the entire rad off and it stays no warmer than 3 blobs......I started with half the rad but it wasn't warming up fast enough for my liking, so went and tried a larger piece of plastic and foam and it worked very well. BUT, to each their own and how cold it gets in your region as to how much you would block off the rad.  Trial and error is best to see what is best for your area. I also have two Smarts..one for the winter salt months and hopefully a good car for the non salt months.  The good car also has an enlarged scoop for the inter cooler and it is an enclosed system Not relying on the shape of the body for air deflection.  Yes probably way over kill but while the sub frame was out i went to town...lol.

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A good thermostat makes a huge difference as well but we are way off Sydney’s topic.

 

Nigel

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1 hour ago, Nigel said:

A good thermostat makes a huge difference as well but we are way off Sydney’s topic.

 

Nigel

lol, no worries.   my post was quite old anyway.  

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On 14/06/2021 at 4:20 PM, Willys said:

Hmmmm.....as long as you do not drain the entire system you should be ok, imho. You just need to cap off the junction at the sub frame location and then bleed like any normal car etc....but that is just my theory. I made the bad mistake of allowing the whole system to drain when i first took my sub frame out. IF you cap it off then make sure the master never gets air trapped or locked which ever it is, imho you should be able to reattach the sub frame and simply keep adding fluids to brake system even if you do it by gravity feed.....?  The issue comes when you accidentally allow the master to loose it's fluid past the plunger.  Then you'll need a scanner capable of bleeding ABS brakes. In Canada that'll cost you $200 ish or more depending upon the scanner you choose. 
Fitting a roaster engine...Hmmm....what HP increase? Are you transferring the computers etc etc as well...?  If you aren't you'll need a STAR system I bet to get the computers to talk to each other and accept the new configuration. That is IF there is any difference in the electronics of the whole swap.  Maybe I'm wrong about the computers but over here with the CDI's you can't easily swap things around like the old days, too much electronics...augh...good luck and post up pics when it's done....I'd love to see the finished project.....thanks.

 

P.S.   you can drop the sub frame about 10" or so with the brakes hooked up which will allow far more room to get hands in etc.   Then simply re attach sub frame if you have to to get engine out etc.

Dropped engine and gearbox today

IMG_20210713_161428-1.jpg

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You sure this is England....the sun is shining....lol.   You are supposed to be an inch under water under a tarp...lol. Soaked to the skin....and turning bluer by the second....lol.

Great job, now, what's wrong with it?

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